FBI Ditches .40 for 9mm

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I never cared for the .40. I consider it a totally redundant caliber. I love 1911's, but the 9 MM is completely adequate with good ammo. In today's crazy world, extra capacity is nice. I keep remembering that family in a van a few years back that got attacked by that motorcycle gang on the Interstate. That could happen to anyone. That is when I started carrying my BHP 9 with extra mags all the time over my .45.
 
jmr40 said:
So a gun loaded with 16-18 rounds of 124 gr 9mm bullets leaving the muzzle at 1250-1300 fps is a downgrade from a 6 shot 357 mag revolver shooting 125 gr bullets at 1250-1300 fps :confused:

I guess 1 gr of bullet weight and .002" greater bullet diameter really matters even if you have 10-12 fewer rounds and less recoil.
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.357 Mag don't get no 1250 - 1300 fps with a 125gr slug.

It's reputation comes from 125gr at 1450. And a very fast opening jhp at that.


Deaf
 
I think you should carry what you feel comfortable with. If you do not feel comfortable with what you carry, there is an increased chance that you wont carry it. My first rule is to actually carry the pistol/revolver. I hear from some in my local gun community that put the 9mm down as inadequate or for women. I ask them what they think is adequate and normally get the 40,45, 357mag response. Then I ask if they are carrying it.....normally I get "no". Excuses range from "its too heavy/big" to not being able to find a comfortable holster. A defensive handgun is not going to help you when "its in the truck".

My second rule is to actually shoot and train with your pistol/revolver. Being familiar with your defensive arms will boost confidence in your abilities. I would rather that female or metrosexual actually train with their firearm than to be intimidated by a larger , heavier firearm that they will not train with.

Ability and skill > caliber.
 
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They believe the 9mm with modern and improved ammunition is a better fit for their sometimes limp wristed SAs now recruited from all sectors of society- the women, the metrosexuals, and people of small stature. I guess most of the he-men of the Hoover era with their Model 19 .357s have finally been replaced by Clarisse Starlings and gentler souls who need a milder form of protection.
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I think you're making a connection between 9mm and the culture wars were none exists.
 
Blacksmoke said:
You probably have read the FBI, that implacable foe of all enemies of the United States, decided to replace the .40 auto which replaced the 10 mm auto with the 9 mm Parabellum auto. They believe the 9mm with modern and improved ammunition is a better fit for their sometimes limp wristed SAs now recruited from all sectors of society-the women, the metrosexuals, and people of small stature. I guess most of the he-men of the Hoover era with their Model 19 .357s have finally been replaced by Clarisse Starlings and gentler souls who need a milder form of protection.

Sorry if I sound like a grumpy old crank but that is what I am and proud of it, too.
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Following the Bren Ten I remember when the 10mm grew in sudden popularity and the FBI was all over the 10mm. Alas, I guess small handed agents and female agents complained about the recoil and their ability to control a gun like a 10mm Colt Delta Elite. The answer was the .40 S&W. Those smart guys at S&W chopped down the 10mm and introduced the 40 S&W. Again, the FBI as well as law enforcement nationwide was all over the new cartridge, the 40 S&W. So now what is the problem with the 40? Great, so back to the 9mm where we began about 25 years ago. The only thing here I can agree with is the wonder 9s have evolved quite a bit with newer bullet technology and propellants. The FBI just reminds me of a dog chasing its tail.

Personally I liked the 10mm, I also like the 40 S&W and while I was never in a 9mm fan club the 9mm is an OK round. I simply see the FBI as idiots trying to find a one cartridge fits all scenario.

Ron
 
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It's not just the FBI, every agency out there is looking to replace what they have with the latest and greatest.
Look at the 45 GAP, 357 Sig, the old .357 and .41 mags, they've all been cooked up to make the perfect LE round not to mention the 45ACP, 38 spcl., 38 super, and even the 44 mag and 45 LC all of which have a following that say they are the final word in what a cop should be carrying.
No surprise that the 9mm keeps coming around in some circles, it is a compromise like all the rest but I like the pros over the cons even though I have at least one of all the above except the GAP and 38 Super. I'm no small guy and wear XXL gloves but prefer the size/weight, speed/control and capacity the 9mm offers.
 
1. When was the last time you heard/read about the FBI having/getting to shoot someone.

2. I'd like to hear some more about those 110-pound massage therapists...
 
I'd like to hear some more about those 110-pound massage therapists...
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Why ?

Do you have back problems?

You could have ljnowell walk on your back, it'd straighten it right out.
 
Well, if the 9mm thing doesn't work out, there is always another step backwards in the quest for something that works:


"The first man they (the FBI) shot with the LHP weighed about 300 pounds. He took one hit 'plumb center', attempted to take a step, and fell flat on his face."

__Ed Lovette, writing in The Snubby Revolver
 
just read the FBI news statement you all should read it too,
1. They are proposing the switch to 9mm for there office workers ONLY !!!
2. Special field units will NOT carry the 9mm !!!!!
3. There bullet choice it the 9mm 147gr Speer Gold Dot G2 !!!!!
4. They have submitted their findings to the Government in hopes
to receive 84 + Million dollars more tax payer money to do this !!!!

Sounds like they have slanted the statistics and facts to get what they
want MORE MONEY, remember these folks that cherry pick the stats and
facts are the same type of Government folks the say Gun Control works and
we should not own anything over 10 rounds and gun free Zones are the safest places as well as a possible mandatory gun buy back works they have a fact sheet to prove that one too !!!!!!

If it was really about a better bullet and caliber why could they not just
re-barrel the ones they have ?
This bullet that their suggesting is a polymer tipped 147 gr much like the
Hornady Critical Defense just made by Speer

Just a BIG BS SMOKE SCREEN for more TAX PAYER money and its not even
to be used by their field teams
and has not even been implemented this is a big money thing and its not like the GOV makes good choices and there is always company's biding for GOV contracts that say my snake oil is better then their snake oil
 
I shoot the 9mm quite a bit but if I carry I carry a Walther PP in 32 auto. It boils down to someone's sig line in a nutshell caliber,fmj or hp you've still been shot. Personally I've yet to have anyone volunteer to let me put a few 32 auto hps into them.
 
I work with some Bureau guys fairly frequently and am fortunate enough to call a few of them friends. While they do have some really good guys they also have some that leave a lot to be desired. And while the legacy of accountants and lawyers is in the past, I still think there are quite a few. There also seem to be a pretty diverse backgrounds with other folks coming on board. Most of the guys I know are either former cops or former military. I have talked to them about this transition back to the 9mm. Most of them are ambivalent to it......for them it's like any other department where they are subject to decisions made on their behalf. Some seem to be absolutely in favor of the switch, others seem to like the .40, and a few I know still carry a 1911 and are opposed to the switch. One of my buddies was going to give me the data sheet containing the ballistics. While I have not seen it yet, he tells me the new round is very impressive because it's incredibly consistent. I guess at the end of the day that's what we all want out of rounds isn't it? Consistency. Same thing with the choice of firearms. From what I understand all of the units will be making the switch, not just the folks in the field.
 
The online reviews of this round is it is a poor performer I believe this is a new
Unproven round that has done poorly in testing I would suspect their are pockets
Getting fat on this deal and some big perks tossed in too it's all about the good deal not so much as the best product
 
Consistency with regard to penetration and expansion. As it was explained to me, the round seems to have a traditional hollow point that is filled with polymer of some sort - kind of like the hornandy ammo as mentioned earlier in this thread - but there are some features that also differentiate it from these rounds. I haven't seen it yet so I can't speak from first hand experience. I tried looking it up, but there doesn't seem to be much info on it yet. And while I would not doubt that someone is getting rich off this deal, I can't see the Bureau buying some junk. One of my buddies is a firearms instructor and is 100% sold on the new round, although he hasn't been issued it yet. He supposedly got to shoot some of it a few months ago while at Quantico.
 
For example, I was present during the Bank of America caper in Los Angeles in the early 1990s. I witnessed how effective the LAPD issued 9MM Beretta was.
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You were there? As a witness? I watched in on TV.

I recall how the police shotguns loaded with 00 buckshot were also ineffective. Then I remember how they raided the local pawnshops to rearm themselves with 40SW and 45ACP manstoppers. Wait, maybe I'm remembering that wrong?

Based on the BoA incident, perhaps our law enforcers need to go down another step to .223 caliber Keltec AR pistols?
 
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Would not a .45 swc be "incredibly consistent" and still be bigger than a 9mm (and easily meet the penetration minimum as well as not be +p?)

To meet 12 inches with a hard cast swc at even a sedate 800 fps is not difficult. And since it is 'expanded' from the moment of impact it might very well destroy more by volume than any 9mm.

Deaf
 
I bet they sell their 40 stockpile of guns and ammo to some cartel or rebel group
And then complain that they are out gunned :eek: send more money
To bad there is not a vote on this before they WASTE close to 100 million tax payer money on this isn't the Gov already many trillions in debt ?
This type of GOV WASTE is terrible when I was still in the service I seen new and good stuff tossed out and big screen TVs replaced all the time for Officers but when my unit needed updated body armor and supply's no money for that was told it is different account funds so my new recruits had no armor and the stuff
We did have was outdated after this I realized that the bean counter make these
Decisions on NOT what is best for the boots in the field.
I think this FBI waste of money choice should be on a tax payer vote since what
They have now works just fine
 
The common denominator seems to be that they shoot better, as in better scores and faster times,
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I heard this argument and witnessed the results when the Army switched from the M1911A1 to the M9, also. Yes, our scores on quals improved, including mine; from 38/40 to 40/40, but I still would have rather had the 1911's going into combat. (fortunately, I never had to do so.) The M9's were an improvement over the M10 revolvers issued to our Dustoff unit, however.

The purpose of a handgun for both the military and the FBI is to put your opponent out of the fight. Terminal ballistics is what does this. Yes, the 9mm with JHP ammo has improved immensely since the Miami shootout, and the FBI can and does use JHP, but that same increase in effectiveness of bullet terminal ballistics hold true for the .40 and the .45 ACP. Smaller persons such as the OP mentioned can be taught to fire the .45ACP effectively-I have taught some to do so. If I can teach a 98-pound-soaking- wet female 2LT to qualify with the 1911A1, I'm sure the staff at Quantico could teach their SA's to also.

Better scores look good on Supervisor's reviews; terminally effective return fire saves agent's lives.
 
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