"FBI Load" Barrier Penetration

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novaDAK

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I searched and didn't find this topic discussed before, just expansion/performance through denim/bare gel, etc.

How likely is this particular bullet to penetrate auto glass? Sheet metal? etc.?

How likely would a Speer Gold Dot (125gr "Low Velocity" version) penetrate the same barriers? I know the Gold Dot in general does well through barriers due to its 'bonded' design but I don't hear about the 125gr .38 load much at all, but it seems to reach the FBI min. of 12" while expanding reliably from what I've seen on the internet (Brassfetcher).
 
Ah.... You're not supposed to ask questions like that... :evil:

The truth of the matter is that any hollow point may act differently then it does in laboratory tests, especially if the hollow cavity gets filled with some substance that it passes through to reach its intended target. When or if this happens the bullet often tends to implode, not expand, and penetrate more then it might otherwise. It is a good idea to not put too much dependence on how much a bullet may or may not expand, and put more effort to make sure you can place it where expansion – in and of itself – isn’t important.
 
Yeah I know that a lot of hollow points won't expand and will deform when hitting barriers. My real question is whether or not the good old lead hollow point would penetrate at all. I saw a youtube video where a guy's shooting a standard frying pan with different ammo types, and 9mm, .40, and .45 (all FMJ) zip right through, while the 158gr SWC .38 bounced off. Now I know that we won't likely have to shoot through a frying pan but it got me thinking...

Thanks for the input.
 
I think there are some factors here other then the cartridges:

1. Was the .38 SWC a soft swaged or hard cast bullet?

2. Was the "standard frying pan" cast iron or something else?

3. What was the .38's velocity? When it comes to penetration through metal plate the velocity is often more important then bullet construction or material. Barrel length plays a part too.
 
The thing to know is the 158 grain LHP will still weigh more then the 125 grain bullet, even if it sheds the whole HP nose section.

That added weight will push on through glass better then a light bullet that comes apart at the seams on a hard target.

I have shot them through both sides of a car body at 100 yards out of a 6" gun.
Can't recall shooting any frying pans though.

rcmodel
 
I think there are some factors here other then the cartridges:

1. Was the .38 SWC a soft swaged or hard cast bullet?

2. Was the "standard frying pan" cast iron or something else?

3. What was the .38's velocity? When it comes to penetration through metal plate the velocity is often more important then bullet construction or material. Barrel length plays a part too.
1. Most likely a swaged SWC
2. Cast Iron
3. It was out of a 6" GP100, so velocity was most likely under 900fps. He shot the same load out of a lever action and it went through, so you're definately right about velocity being very important.

The thing to know is the 158 grain LHP will still weigh more then the 125 grain bullet, even if it sheds the whole HP nose section.

That added weight will push on through glass better then a light bullet that comes apart at the seams on a hard target.

I have shot them through both sides of a car body at 100 yards out of a 6" gun.
Can't recall shooting any frying pans though.

rcmodel
Thanks for the input. My concern was that the Gold Dot would hold together better though I have no proof to back that up in this particular situation and given weight...most modern day testing conveniently leave out .38. As it stands now, I keep my gun loaded with LSWCHP +P (Zero Bullet Company) with 125gr Gold Dots in speedloaders and Speedstrips, since it is more rounded and doesn't have the sharp shoulder of the SWC they're easier to reload faster with.
 
The Old Fuff's pet 1950's Colt Detective Special is usually loaded with:

1. Standard velocity 158 grain LSW. They shoot to point of aim/point of impact, and do so dead on.

2. Regular 148 grain lead wadcutters (mid-range loading). Inside residence distances aren't likely to be over 15 feet at best, maybe 25 at the most.

I am not the least worried about expansion, and I want enough penetration to do the job, but not a lot more then that. I do want the ability to make fast - but accurate - repeat shots.

Outside of home I will likely have a hammerless .38 in a sidepocket holster, using the same loads. If or when I want a more powerful load/caliber it will be in a bigger gun. I am more then satisfied with the size hole that a .44 or .45 makes, even if the bullet doesn't expand.

I let others worry about how well their hollow-point load will expand. ;)
 
Hehe that's a good line of thinking :)

I know what you mean. I shot a box of S&B 148 wadcutters out of my 4" K-frame and was amazed at how accurate it was and how little recoil there was. For woods/outdoors carry I have my Ruger loaded up with 158gr JSPs. I'll always favor penetration over expansion, especially in a woods setting. For personal defense, I like having both.
 
Was the "standard frying pan" cast iron or something else?
Perhaps the frying pan's none-stick teflon coating somehow gave it Level IIA protection.

If so, I'll be up-armoring my tacical wheel-barrow by duct taping several frying pans to key areas.:evil:
 
Could also be the mystery-metal frying pan was so light weight it could move with the slower bullet and get itself partly out of harms way. Back it up with a fence post or something and it might have went through it.

rcmodel
 
Perhaps the frying pan's none-stick teflon coating somehow gave it Level IIA protection.

If so, I'll be up-armoring my tacical wheel-barrow by duct taping several frying pans to key areas.

haha :D

Could also be the mystery-metal frying pan was so light weight it could move with the slower bullet and get itself partly out of harms way. Back it up with a fence post or something and it might have went through it.

rcmodel
Could be. Out of the revolver the .38 sure made a big dent...
 
The only barrier test info I have left at hand for .38 Spl is from something Winchester provided from 2002. It lists various loads fired from a S&W M60 2" and includes their X38SPD 158gr LHP +P.

According to their factory testing in the Autoglass barrier test it averaged penetration of the gel behind the glass barrier of 7.1"; exp. 0.63" & retained 83% of its original weight (recovered at 131gr). No images were provided. That level of penetration was at the upper range of the various loads they tested from within their product line at that time. Last I heard the Winchester LHP +P offering still used a harder lead than the Remington load I generally use, and I can't find any of the results from some previous state-sponsored testing I was told about involving the Rem load in 2" snub revolvers.

Now, I've never been particularly concerned over how my defensive handguns defeated automotive windshield glass ( or steel). I've seen and learned of variable results over the years across the wide range of calibers often encountered in LE work. I do tend to like heavier bullets if the situation and overall circumstances permit it, though.

I've recently learned of a large metro agency who is reportedly planning to issue S&W J-frames as secondary weapons, and after much testing the ammunition choice is likely going to be standard target wadcutters, although the Speer 135gr GDHP +P did very well in ballistic testing (no surprise).

Why the standard wadcutter? Well, apparently the consistently better accuracy demonstrated by the average shooters was significantly better than when the harder kicking +P HP load was used. Again, not really a surprise. The performance capabilities of the WC load is apparently within the range of what the agency considers appropriate for their officers' usage as a secondary weapon caliber/load in the circumstances they anticipate them encountering.

I'd be a bit surprised if they were particularly worried about autoglass barrier situations while they were developing the concept of issuing J-frames as secondary weapons. Haven't asked them, though. Just a guess.

The cutting/crush characteristics of the WC bullet have been muchly discussed and debated. I remember hearing of the concern of some folks upon occasion regarding potential penetration of low-velocity WC's when bony structures & intervening limbs, and some really heavy clothing (layered leather vests, jackets & denim, etc.) may be involved. Dunno the 'answer' to that consideration, although personally I'd still rather have accurately placed hits than misses caused by flinching due to recoil greater than the shooter of the moment could tolerate and handle. Pick your poison, I suppose.

I've used a wide variety of .38 Spl loads over the years. Lots of them. Nowadays I generally use either the Rem 158gr LHP +P or the Speer 135gr GDHP +P in the J-frames I carry which are rated for +P usage (either full-time or at least for limited usage). I use a couple of different standard pressure loads in an older style M37 Airweight.

The felt recoil of the standard pressure 158gr LSWC and 148gr WC do allow for some great controllability and fast follow-up shots, though. I've certainly enjoyed some accurate shooting with 2" 5-shot wheelguns over the years using both loads.

Their time may be coming back around again ...

Stay tuned. ;)
 
Well, my job requires me to respond rapidly to armed threats in the largest indoor shopping environment, so I need something that will hold off bad guys until my SO can assemble the single shot .338. I have put in a request for some G36 rifles and a PSG-1 but haven't heard a reply yet...


"If plan A is to take multipule .308 hits to the back, you really should come up with a plan B"

oh wait that was Gecko45
haha
;)
 
Well, my job requires me to respond rapidly to armed threats in the largest indoor shopping environment, so I need something that will hold off bad guys until my SO can assemble the single shot .338. I have put in a request for some G36 rifles and a PSG-1 but haven't heard a reply yet...

Thanks for the morning laugh! You were reeling me in for a second, and then I was like this sounds familiar :D
 
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