38 Snub Nose - Target Full Wadcutter vs JHP

[marb4]

I've long believed that from a snub nose 38 special the basic target grade Full Wadcutter can be an effective round for civilian self defense. I decided today to do a bit of a comparison between Winchester SuperX 148 grain Full wadcutter and Winchester Ranger Bonded 130 grain +P. Both rounds were fired from my S&W 642 at 10 feet. My setup consisted of 4 layers of cotton t-shirt covering 3 inches calibrated ballistic gel, a 3/4 inch pine board, then another 18 inches of gel. The results are as follows (all penetration depths include the 3/4in pine board):

148 grain target full wadcutter - 16 3/4 in penetration - .40 inches expanded diameter

Ranger Bonded 130 grain +p - 11 inches penetration - .56 inches expanded diameter



I have done quite a bit of gel testing with the Ranger +p load and found it to be a very reliable expander through bare gel and heavy clothing from the snub nose. My primary concern with this load is that it tends to penetrate to the shallow end of the spectrum. Usually in the 12 inch range. Though often maligned as being too weak, target wadcutters, in my experience, usually show excellent penetration in gel (usually in the 16-20 inch range). I understand that my setup is in no way in alignment with FBI protocols but I thought it would be interesting to compare these two loads head to head having to penetrate a hard barrier after encountering "soft tissue" first.

Given the performance of these two loads, which would you prefer - shallower penetration with larger expansion or deeper penetration with very limited expansion?

 

[mcb]

JMHO but I would go with the JHP for both the expansion and the ability to reload quickly. FWC on moonclips sort of suck.

 

[Wishoot]

Personally, I'm much more accurate with standard pressure 148gr WC's out of my snubby's. I like the fact that I don't have to worry about expansion either. Recoil is much more manageable with the WC's as well.

 

[Sistema1927]

Have you seen the Lucky Gunner tests?

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

 

[GRIZ22]

I'm a fan of the wadcutter. Adequate penetration and low recoil and muzzle flash help with faster follow up shots. A wadcutter is,already in an efficient shape that a hollow point needs to expand a bit to get to. You solve the reload issue by carrying standard velocity semi-wadcutters for a reload.

 

[fastbolt]

This is a timely, reoccurring topic among gun forums, it seems. Unsurprising, as the venerable 5-shot snub has been enjoying great sales, and it seems there's no particular shortage of either older or newer users.

This image is from the original 2003 Speer Technical Data Package that used to be available online, discussing the reason and details involved in the development of the 135gr GDHP +P (for NYPD). It was considered a good improvement over the standard 125gr GDHP .38 +P, when used in short-barreled revolvers, and has reportedly proven itself to be very satisfactory to users in both NYPD and elsewhere.


Some folks might decry the lack of "duty gun" 12" minimum penetration, as demonstrated by the 124gr GDHP 9mm +P (used in development as sort of a benchmark for the new .38 load), but the primary roles for the 5-shot snub is as a secondary weapon (backup), or for off-duty use, not as a primary being-dispatched-to-one-hot-call-after-another caliber choice.

I've seen some similar results posted by manufacturers, and in hosted gel shoots, for the 125gr HPJ/BJHP (Golden Sabre) +P and the W-W 130gr RA38B +P (bonded PDX1 bullet). I use all of them in my assorted +P-capable J-frames, depending which box is closest at hand when loading cylinders and speedloaders/strips (not mixed in the same cylinder load, obviously, except to use up recycled carry rounds at the range).

I use different standard pressure loads in my 37-2DAO J-frame, which isn't rated for +P (which I called and asked to confirm with the head of revolver production several years ago, as a revolver armorer). Mostly 110gr JHP's of 3 different manufacturers, but also a standard pressure 125gr JHP (which I save as a second choice, if I can't find the 110's, hoping the 110's might offer better potential for expansion at those low speeds).

Would I use 148gr Target Wadcutters? Sure, if that's all I had, or if I could no longer tolerate the increased recoil of the +P loads in my Airweights and M&P 340's. I'd even settle for standard pressure 158gr LSWC, with its sort of sharper edged meplat.

Not everyone can controllably and effectively use harder recoiling .38 Spl loads, and the soft-shooting but relatively soft-swaged 148gr Wadcutter can help such folks get better hits, more controllably, which is really the name of the game.

I remember learning of one large agency (1200+) who was considering the use of 5-shto J-frames as authorized secondary & off-duty weapons. Dunno what the eventual outcome was, but at the time I remember being told (by someone involved in the program) that they'd observed the officers involved in helping test guns/loads were consistently more accurate, and faster, when given 148gr WC ammo to use, versus some of the harder recoiling (but bigger expanding) state-of-the-art JHP +P's. The feeling at the time was that the general officer users would be better served by being issued the target wadcutters.

Gotta get the accurate hits, quickly enough, before you can hope for it to work effectively.

 

[Hanshi]

Wadcutter loads are comfortable to fire and more accurate as a result. Regardless, I keep my M60 loaded with 158 grain lead +P hollow points. When I go shooting with it I shoot wadcutters.

 

[Jonesy814]

I would opt for penetration over expansion any day if I couldn't get both. The bullet has to reach vital areas. If it fails to reach the vitals then it doesn't much matter how big it got. Ability to shoot accurately with fast, on target follow up shots trumps a hypervelocity super expanding wrist breaking miss every time!

 

[joneb]

For my 1 7/8" S&W j frame I load it with either 158 gr cast or 148 gr swaged plain base WC's.

 

[ancientnoob]

As a .38 spl short barreled carrier, may I offer a 3rd choice? I favor the ARX Interceptor 77 grain fluted copper-polymer non expanding projectile. Seeing as though expansion is hit or miss at relatively low velocity. The “new” cartidge offers hardball penetration with a focus on fluid displacement since in a self defense situation the target is mostly fluid seems logical. The 77grain projectile has far less recoil due to low weight and higher velocity to penetrate clothing, while shattering on unintended hard targets. If the projectile hits bone it shatters and dumps all that energy inside the target. The polycase ARX has reduced recoil, reduced flash and high velocity. What more could one want from a small business gun. That’s my choice.
I have read some old timers used to load waddcutters backwards to make a super hallow point. Unfortunately I don’t reload. The down side is ARX is $18 for 20 cartidges.

 

[Sistema1927]

The down side is ARX is $18 for 20 cartidges.

That is about par, costwise, for premium defensive ammo.

The published results look promising, but have there been any examples of real world defesnive use? I, for one, am always leery of unproven technology when my life is at stake.

 

[GRIZ22]

Keep in mind if you shoot your +P hollow point $1 a round ammo well you'll shoot that 148 gr target wadcutter better and faster.

Just something to think about.

 

[ancientnoob]

The published results look promising, but have there been any examples of real world defesnive use? I, for one, am always leery of unproven technology when my life is at stake.

That’s a fair argument for sure.
When in doubt grandpa’s 158grain LSW does the job. Either way I would encourage anyone in that struggle to just dump the cylinder of whatever you have on the bad dude. 5-6 shots of .38 special anything is going to make a bad day for everyone involved far worse for the business receivers.

 

[Livin_Cincy]

ancientnoob- I agree. Deer hunters understand how shot placement takes a deer down. The effect of multiple shots not exiting duplicates the deer shot thru the lungs and out the other side. It is a time proven hunting technique.

 

[Jenrick]

I worked a shooting one day (please note a shooting not a homicide). Individual was sitting at a bus stop, when the suspect walked up behind them and fired 5 rounds of .38 SPL into their back from almost point blank range. The victim gave me a suspect description, etc as we WALKED to the ambulance. In about a month the victim was sitting back at their usual spot at the bus stop, apparently none the worse for being shot 5 times.

Yes shot placement trumps everything. However good bullets certainly don't hurt.

-Jenrick

 

[Gary A]

Jenrick, was the individual a large person? I certainly believe you but I can hardly imagine that would be a common outcome for someone shot five times in the back at close range with a .38 Special revolver.

 

[Jenrick]

He was not, rather thin actually. Crack cocaine has that effect.

I agree it's probably not common, but there are always failures with any caliber.

I walked another subject, who attempted suicide, to the ambulance after they shot themselves point black in the forehead with a .44 round ball from a replica 1851 Navy. Didn't even crack the skull, they were back at home in 72 hours. Had a female shoot herself in the heart, contact shot with a .22lr, she was conscious as they loaded her into the ambulance. She was back home in a month IIRC. I've seen numerous folks shot with pretty much everything out there, and to be honest humans are pretty sturdy. Had a suspect take a slug from a Siaga to his thigh, his femur, and his abdomen. He lost his leg, but he survived.

-Jenrick

 

[NMPOPS]

First, I don't carry reloads for various reasons. I have carried wad cutters but currently do not have any factory loads. So, I carry Federal 158 +P LSWC-HP, that as they say ain't what they used to be. But for a 642 they are accurate and controllable.

 

[Jenrick]

I'll add I have carried, and do carry on occasion a wheel gun in .38 SPL. My current carry load is Speer Gold dot 125gr +P. As my wife prefers my M15 over any other gun I own, and is extremely recoil sensitive, I leave that one loaded with Nyclads. From being on scene at a lot of shootings, the reality is that rarely does a round do fatal damage, so much as inflict severe psychological damage. If the suspect you're dealing with needs to be physically stopped, shot placement will become the penultimate factor with caliber usually accounting for little effect. If the suspect merely requires a psychological stop (ie run away in fear, flop on the ground claiming their headed to the light after being grazed in the foot, etc.) then again caliber matters little, and the will to pull the trigger matters far more.

-Jenrick

 

[Monster Zero]

I've long believed that from a snub nose 38 special the basic target grade Full Wadcutter can be an effective round for civilian self defense. I decided today to do a bit of a comparison between Winchester SuperX 148 grain Full wadcutter and Winchester Ranger Bonded 130 grain +P. Both rounds were fired from my S&W 642 at 10 feet. My setup consisted of 4 layers of cotton t-shirt covering 3 inches calibrated ballistic gel, a 3/4 inch pine board, then another 18 inches of gel. The results are as follows (all penetration depths include the 3/4in pine board):

148 grain target full wadcutter - 16 3/4 in penetration - .40 inches expanded diameter

Ranger Bonded 130 grain +p - 11 inches penetration - .56 inches expanded diameter

View attachment 782786

I have done quite a bit of gel testing with the Ranger +p load and found it to be a very reliable expander through bare gel and heavy clothing from the snub nose. My primary concern with this load is that it tends to penetrate to the shallow end of the spectrum. Usually in the 12 inch range. Though often maligned as being too weak, target wadcutters, in my experience, usually show excellent penetration in gel (usually in the 16-20 inch range). I understand that my setup is in no way in alignment with FBI protocols but I thought it would be interesting to compare these two loads head to head having to penetrate a hard barrier after encountering "soft tissue" first.

Given the performance of these two loads, which would you prefer - shallower penetration with larger expansion or deeper penetration with very limited expansion?

Easy choice, I'd go with the Ranger hollow points. However, if I were in a jam and needed something that goes blam, right now, with terminal effect and all I had were the wadcutters then that's what I'd use. I'd use wadcutters before FMJ or LRN bullets. Wadcutters seem to be popular among the big bore revolver enthusiasts.

 

[Gary A]

I've seen numerous folks shot with pretty much everything out there, and to be honest humans are pretty sturdy.

Yeah, I guess life has a way of trying to keep on living.

 

[Water-Man]

One of the best HP rounds for a 38spl is the Cor-Bon DPX +P. Good penetration, expansion and the recoil isn't bad either.

 

[M1key]

Anyone tried the Federal 130 HST? I'm looking at that round myself.

M

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Before I went to Viet Nam my first tour, I loaded up a bunch of .357s with hollow-based wad cutters loaded backwards and all the Unique I dared. They leaded ferociously, but they worked.

 

[cal44mag]

Back when most 38 special loads were round nose lead, the move to target wadcutters was an improvement.

And wadcutters still aren't bad.

But bullet technology has improved a lot over the past 20 years, and there are now short barrel loads available -- loads like Critical Defense 110gr, Speer GoldDot 135 gr+P, the Buffalo Bore 38 special standard pressure loads, etc.

And these usually expand and are better choices, I figure.

How many police departments that allow 38 snub backup guns issue or recommend wadcutters?

(Not just a rhetorical question as it would be interesting to know)