tbeb
Member
Have you personally chronographed current Federal .38 special+P ammunition? If you have then I'd like to know the load, barrel length, and velocity. Thanks.
Federal .38 special+P
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ted murphy
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I have chronoed the Federal 158 grain LSWC +P loads in a J frame and a 4" model 10.
Is that the bullet weight you are interested in?
Ted
Is that the bullet weight you are interested in?
Ted
tbeb
Member
Yes, plus 125 gr. and 129 gr.
P. Plainsman
Member
I'd like to hear this too.
There's a thread currently near this one that deals with the Federal 129gr Hydra-Shok +P loads. It has been suggested there, as in several other threads here, that Federal's +Ps are loaded too weakly to be effective for defense.
Since I currently load my bedside revolver with the 129 gr Hydra-Shoks, I am very interested in the facts.
There's a thread currently near this one that deals with the Federal 129gr Hydra-Shok +P loads. It has been suggested there, as in several other threads here, that Federal's +Ps are loaded too weakly to be effective for defense.
Since I currently load my bedside revolver with the 129 gr Hydra-Shoks, I am very interested in the facts.
christophera
Member
I'm interested too. Although Federal seems to load most of their rounds cooler than other makes and still performs just as well. Just because they're not as fast as Remington or Winchester doesn't mean they're not good for defense. But still interesting to take a look at.
I don't understand why the member in question keeps saying that Federal is loaded light. In printed gun tests, it always equals or beats Winchester velocities and beats Remington in this SWC-HP Plus P .38 round.
In snubs, I've seen it chronographed from about 780 FPS to 830 FPS. In four-inch guns, about 925-950 FPS, depending on the gun and the writer.
Recoil certainly is on par with the other two makes in my own guns, and it's quite accurate, especially in my S&W M66.
Lone Star
In snubs, I've seen it chronographed from about 780 FPS to 830 FPS. In four-inch guns, about 925-950 FPS, depending on the gun and the writer.
Recoil certainly is on par with the other two makes in my own guns, and it's quite accurate, especially in my S&W M66.
Lone Star
Jim March
Member
The ammolabs numbers are down right now but every test I've seen there and everywhere else, at least in revolver rounds and sometimes slidegun fodder too, they've stunk.
ted murphy
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FWIW, I chronoed both the Federal and Winchester 158 grain LSWC +P. It's in my notebook in my office but I do recall, the Winchester was consistently 30fps faster than the Federal. Have to dig my notebook out when I go to work tue. I also remember that we used the Federal load in my J frame to check the chrono at this years PA IDPA state match and even in the 2" bbl, it made power factor.
Ted
Ted
Stainz
Member
I chrono-ed the Remington R-38S12 158gr LHPSWC +P .38 Specials to get the following:
2" M10 834 +/-5 fps
3" M65 912 +/-16 fps
6" M66 994 +/-18 fps
This is the only such ammo my dealer said was available to him. He orders it for me and another fellow, a couple of boxes at a time ($17/box to me.), refusing to keep 'lead' in stock as it "... doesn't sell!". It is perfect for my 2" M10 and 3" M66 - especially at home.
Stainz
2" M10 834 +/-5 fps
3" M65 912 +/-16 fps
6" M66 994 +/-18 fps
This is the only such ammo my dealer said was available to him. He orders it for me and another fellow, a couple of boxes at a time ($17/box to me.), refusing to keep 'lead' in stock as it "... doesn't sell!". It is perfect for my 2" M10 and 3" M66 - especially at home.
Stainz
Stainz-
Thanks! Looks like your snub is getting about all one can hope for from this type load, based on many published tests that I've seen over the years in magazines.
Because your other two guns are actually .357's, you're probably losing some bullet speed that .38 Special chambers would provide. I used to know how much velocity one should deduct for rounds fired in .357's...I think it averages maybe 25 FPS.
Whether Federal or Winchester clocks faster in a given test seems to depend more on ammo lot and the particular guns than anything else.
Remington uses a softer lead bullet alloy, so the (usually) lower velocity from their ammo is somewhat offset by the bullet expanding more readily. But it thus naturally tends to lead bores worse. The quality control on the few boxes of Remington ammo I've seen (of this type load) has been horrible. Some bullets are seated at crooked angles! Others have had the hollow points dented or almost closed. I wonder if the dealer who had it had dropped it and damaged it. May have.
Lone Star
Thanks! Looks like your snub is getting about all one can hope for from this type load, based on many published tests that I've seen over the years in magazines.
Because your other two guns are actually .357's, you're probably losing some bullet speed that .38 Special chambers would provide. I used to know how much velocity one should deduct for rounds fired in .357's...I think it averages maybe 25 FPS.
Whether Federal or Winchester clocks faster in a given test seems to depend more on ammo lot and the particular guns than anything else.
Remington uses a softer lead bullet alloy, so the (usually) lower velocity from their ammo is somewhat offset by the bullet expanding more readily. But it thus naturally tends to lead bores worse. The quality control on the few boxes of Remington ammo I've seen (of this type load) has been horrible. Some bullets are seated at crooked angles! Others have had the hollow points dented or almost closed. I wonder if the dealer who had it had dropped it and damaged it. May have.
Lone Star
fecmech
Member
"Because your other two guns are actually .357's, you're probably losing some bullet speed that .38 Special chambers would provide. I used to know how much velocity one should deduct for rounds fired in .357's...I think it averages maybe 25 FPS".
Lone Star--I've always thought that too but I have the exact oposite situation between my S&W K-38 6" and Ruger gp-100 6". I have 3 .38 loads that I shoot a lot of, 2 with bullseye and 1 with 231 that run in the 800-900fps range. The Ruger .357 beats the "K" gun with all 3 loads from 20 to 35 fps. Go figure! Nick
Lone Star--I've always thought that too but I have the exact oposite situation between my S&W K-38 6" and Ruger gp-100 6". I have 3 .38 loads that I shoot a lot of, 2 with bullseye and 1 with 231 that run in the 800-900fps range. The Ruger .357 beats the "K" gun with all 3 loads from 20 to 35 fps. Go figure! Nick
fecmec-
Don't know why, but Rugers commonly give higher velocities than Smiths. Some say it's because of the very healthy whack the hammer gives the primer, but I think Rugers typically also have tighter barrel-cylinder gaps.
They sure do in the guns I've examined.
Anyone else got any chrono figures on the lead HP round?
Lone Star
Don't know why, but Rugers commonly give higher velocities than Smiths. Some say it's because of the very healthy whack the hammer gives the primer, but I think Rugers typically also have tighter barrel-cylinder gaps.
They sure do in the guns I've examined.
Anyone else got any chrono figures on the lead HP round?
Lone Star
Gabby Hayes
Member
All are .38 Special 158gr +P LSW-HP, except where noted.
From a test in "Handguns Magazine" about 2 years back. 2-inch barrel, 4 shot average:
Federal 753 fps (Nyclad)
Winchester 818 fps
From an article on .38 snubby revolvers by Evan Marshall published about the same time. 2-inch barrel, 10 shot average
Federal 801 fps
Winchester 798 fps
Remington 788 fps
Blazer 772 fps
Aguila 678 fps (JHP)
Most of what I've read over the years tends to agree that Federal is a conservative loader, but not that much so it makes a whole lot of difference. Variations between ammo lots from a single vendor, and between different samples of the same model gun from the same manufacturer will often show more variation than the above figures. Last I heard Federal had discontinued their entire all-lead bullet line anyway, leaving only Winchester and Remington for us wheelgun fans. With pressure from environmental groups, and indoor ranges pushing lead out the door to keep their air-filtering costs lower, I don't see the LHP having much of a future. Buy 'em now if you want to have some around.
From a test in "Handguns Magazine" about 2 years back. 2-inch barrel, 4 shot average:
Federal 753 fps (Nyclad)
Winchester 818 fps
From an article on .38 snubby revolvers by Evan Marshall published about the same time. 2-inch barrel, 10 shot average
Federal 801 fps
Winchester 798 fps
Remington 788 fps
Blazer 772 fps
Aguila 678 fps (JHP)
Most of what I've read over the years tends to agree that Federal is a conservative loader, but not that much so it makes a whole lot of difference. Variations between ammo lots from a single vendor, and between different samples of the same model gun from the same manufacturer will often show more variation than the above figures. Last I heard Federal had discontinued their entire all-lead bullet line anyway, leaving only Winchester and Remington for us wheelgun fans. With pressure from environmental groups, and indoor ranges pushing lead out the door to keep their air-filtering costs lower, I don't see the LHP having much of a future. Buy 'em now if you want to have some around.
Jim March
Member
The lead hollowpoint cavities on all the 158s regardless of brand are delicate. Ditto any hollowpoint that has an "exposed lead edge" such as the Cor-Bon 38+P 110s. I personally hand-sort and hand-inspect every box of defense ammo, making three piles:
* "Defense grade"
* "Plink/test grade"
* Throw away grade!
I've only seen one of the latter, and I *think* it was a Cor-Bon 110 but I can't recall for sure.
I can recall somewhere seeing chrony results for Federal 158 lead+P being down near 775fps, and that was from a 38spl gun. Most of the published comparisons I've seen (for 38spl) has the velocity difference with Feds being more like 50fps down from others although 30 is certainly bad enough.
38+P from a snubby is VERY marginal. 825fps seems to be a practical minimum for expansion although 850 is better. (BUT I haven't seen enough test data on the Remmies, they're the rarest of the current-production 158 leads (unless you count BufBore) - Winchester 158+Ps are relatively common.
* "Defense grade"
* "Plink/test grade"
* Throw away grade!
I've only seen one of the latter, and I *think* it was a Cor-Bon 110 but I can't recall for sure.
I can recall somewhere seeing chrony results for Federal 158 lead+P being down near 775fps, and that was from a 38spl gun. Most of the published comparisons I've seen (for 38spl) has the velocity difference with Feds being more like 50fps down from others although 30 is certainly bad enough.
38+P from a snubby is VERY marginal. 825fps seems to be a practical minimum for expansion although 850 is better. (BUT I haven't seen enough test data on the Remmies, they're the rarest of the current-production 158 leads (unless you count BufBore) - Winchester 158+Ps are relatively common.
Lone Star wrote, "Because your other two guns are actually .357's, you're probably losing some bullet speed that .38 Special chambers would provide." I have certainly read that a number of times and have accepted it as true, not having chronographed it myself. However, lately I wonder about this because most recent .38 special revolvers have the same cylinder length as the the .357s. Smith, I understand, did this a few years ago to simplify manufacture, and I have a GP100 in .38 special and its cylinder is certainly the same length as the cylinder on my GP in .357. Therefore, the distance from case to forcing cone, the "jump", is the same for both .38 and .357 revolvers of recent vintage. Outside of the shelf being deeper in the cyinder of the .357 than the .38, what would cause a difference in velocity between .38s fired in both given the same distance of travel from case to forcing cone?
Stainz
Member
I have tried to rationalize the longer chamber/short case problem, as I certainly shoot many .44 Specials - and .44 Russians - in .44 Magnum chambers. Most bigger .357/.38 bullets - even the 158gr LHPSWC - will probably bridge the gap between the .38 case and the .357 chamber's ridge before exiting the case, resulting in little lead shaving there. I really think that the differences in velocities is more a function of the b/c gap - and, even the cleanliness of the chamber exits. S&W, for example, accepts a b/c gap range of .004-.010" as acceptable. Certainly, at the upper limit of that range, lead spitting and velocity loss must be greater than at the lower end. I guess a little crud build-up around the cylinder's chamber exits might be '... a good thing'.
Whatever occurs, my 3" 65, like the 2" 10, will have the 158gr +P .38 LHPSWC's loaded... and, I'll continue to think of my 6" 66 as a .38 plinker... When I need more power, I still have my .454 SRH...
Stainz
Whatever occurs, my 3" 65, like the 2" 10, will have the 158gr +P .38 LHPSWC's loaded... and, I'll continue to think of my 6" 66 as a .38 plinker... When I need more power, I still have my .454 SRH...
Stainz
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