Federal Park -- Corps Of Engineers, Raystown Lake, PA

[Sam1911]

I'm looking into this for a boating friend of mine who's just obtained his carry permit.

He's a frequent visitor to Raystown Lake up here in PA and wants to know what laws or rules might apply to him carrying at the lake.

It is listed as a federal park, and is administered by the Army Corps of Engineers. (He says the Coast Guard is the enforcement agency on the lake.)

I've looked over the Corps' sight and can't find anything on weapons. I do see a notice that the lake is subject to "Federal Rules and Regulations" and PA Fish and Boat commission rules, but there is no link where it says I should click to read the federal regs brochure and I can't seem to find one searching online, either.

Normally, I'd say if this is a federal park, the normal federal park rules apply -- state carry laws are in effect except in buildings staffed by federal employees. But with the .mil angle, I'm not perfectly certain -- especially as their regs brochure seems to be missing.

Can anyone shed light here?

 

[alsaqr]

i would advise against carrying concealed on Corps of Engineers property. See page 8:


http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/usa.pdf

 

[Sam1911]

Thank you! That's exactly what I needed!

 

[brboyer]

Perhaps this helps:

36 C.F.R. PART 327—RULES AND REGULATIONS GOVERNING PUBLIC USE OF WATER RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT PROJECTS ADMINISTERED BY THE CHIEF OF ENGINEERS

36 CFR 327.0 - APPLICABILITY
The regulations covered in this part 327 shall be applicable to water resources development projects, completed or under construction, administered by the Chief of Engineers, and to those portions of jointly administered water resources development projects which are under the administrative jurisdiction of the Chief of Engineers. All other Federal, state and local laws and regulations remain in full force and effect where applicable to those water resources development projects.

36 CFR 327.1 - POLICY
(c) The term “project” or “water resources development project”refers to the water areas of any water resources development project administered by the Chief of Engineers, without regard to ownership of underlying land, to all lands owned in fee by the Federal Government and to all facilities therein or thereon of any such water resources development project.

327.26 - State and local laws.

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply on project lands and waters. This includes, but is not limited to, state and local laws and ordinances governing:

(1) Operation and use of motor vehicles, vessels, and aircraft;
(2) Hunting, fishing and trapping;
(3) Use or possession of firearms or other weapons;
(4) Civil disobedience and criminal acts;
(5) Littering, sanitation and pollution; and
(6) Alcohol or other controlled substances.

(b) These state and local laws and ordinances are enforced by those state and local enforcement agencies established and authorized for that purpose.

This would seem to cover it, except that there is this prohibition:

36 C.F.R. 327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.

(a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:
(1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;
(2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under §327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;
(3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or
(4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.
(b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

36 C.F.R. 327.8 Hunting, fishing, and trapping.

(a) Hunting is permitted except in areas and during periods where prohibited by the District Commander.
(b) Trapping is permitted except in areas and during periods where prohibited by the District Commander.
(c) Fishing is permitted except in swimming areas, on boat ramps or other areas designated by the District Commander.
(d) Additional restrictions pertaining to these activities may be established by the District Commander.
(e) All applicable Federal, State and local laws regulating these activities apply on project lands and waters, and shall be regulated by authorized enforcement officials as prescribed in §327.26.

No loaded firearms unless he is using it for fishing.

 

[2DREZQ]

That's contradictory. One says state law applies, specifically firearms, which allows state CWP's. The other prohibits firearms.

I suppose these regs are enforced with the same even-handed approach as the IRS uses...

 

[brboyer]

That's contradictory. One says state law applies, specifically firearms, which allows state CWP's. The other prohibits firearms.

I suppose these regs are enforced with the same even-handed approach as the IRS uses...

You missed this part:

Except as otherwise provided in this part or by Federal law or regulation, state and local laws and ordinances shall apply. . .

 

[2DREZQ]

Another way to read it, then, would be: State law applies specifically to firearms, except of course that state law is superceded in this case by our specific prohibition of firearms as found somewhere else in the regulations.

Hmmm...

So anytime you are on land or water controlled by the Corps, your state permit is not valid? Great, I wonder how many people violate that reg every day and never know it.

 

[bassdogs]

Am a regular on Dale Hollow Lake and always have a loaded firearm [shotgun] on the houseboat. A loaded handgun is also a regular companion when overnighting on the lake. The lake is controlled by the Corp but is also patrolled by Tn state / county as well as Ky LE as the lake crosses state lines. Have never been confronted but it is common practice by houseboaters to carry on their boats. The only people I have ever known to have been hassled have been the result of "discharge" of a firearm outside of a legal hunting situation. Both Tn and Ky are open carry states and both have "will issue" CC regs. Both states recognize most other state CC laws.

Am I missing something or have we just been lucky?

 

[brboyer]

Am a regular on Dale Hollow Lake and always have a loaded firearm [shotgun] on the houseboat. A loaded handgun is also a regular companion when overnighting on the lake. The lake is controlled by the Corp but is also patrolled by Tn state / county as well as Ky LE as the lake crosses state lines. Have never been confronted but it is common practice by houseboaters to carry on their boats. The only people I have ever known to have been hassled have been the result of "discharge" of a firearm outside of a legal hunting situation. Both Tn and Ky are open carry states and both have "will issue" CC regs. Both states recognize most other state CC laws.

Am I missing something or have we just been lucky?

I don't think you are missing anything. Although it appears to be a violation of Federal regulation, acting responsibly is key. I would presume this violation occurs hundreds if not thousands of times each day.

 

[essayons21]

Wait, doesn't the Corp of Engineers administer all navigable waterways and dammed lakes? One reading of those laws would indicate that if you are on a boat in the US, you most likely can't legally carry? Not to mention floodwalls, dikes, dams, etc.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

It looks very muddy to me. So I would carry and pray as I do every day I don't have to use it.

I grew up having a 22 pistol in the tackle box for dispatching gar and water mocs that wanted a boat ride.

But I have always lived in either Ark or TX and we have a greater expression of gun rights than many other places in the NE USA.

 

[Sam1911]

But I have always lived in either Ark or TX and we have a greater expression of gun rights than many other places in the NE USA.

Psshaw! They both might as well be New Jersey compared to Pennsylvania!

While I never advocate carrying where illegal, Handgunlaw.us does have this to say on the matter:

However the Legal Rep for the Core I talked with said it is commonly accepted that they will not harass or search private vehicles for weapons/firearms or any other prohibited item without obvious and serious cause to do so and that within their boundaries they do have full authority to do so even in the state park or other facility located inside their boundaries (boat docks, marinas, launch ramps, lake houses, cabins, etc.).

 

[bassdogs]

The Corp has jurisdiction over waters defined as navigatible but not necessarily "dammed" lakes. Example the Corp [in real fact the Coast Guard] has juristiction over Dale Hollow but not the TVA Lake Cumberland just 15 miles away at its closest point. The reason is that Dale Hollow Lake crosses state lines and Lake Cumberland is entirely in Ky. Neither are navigatable as the lakes, while large, are fed by relatively small rivers and creeks.

 

[brboyer]

Psshaw! They both might as well be New Jersey compared to Pennsylvania!

While I never advocate carrying where illegal, Handgunlaw.us does have this to say on the matter:

However the Legal Rep for the Core I talked with said it is commonly accepted that they will not harass or search private vehicles for weapons/firearms or any other prohibited item without obvious and serious cause to do so and that within their boundaries they do have full authority to do so even in the state park or other facility located inside their boundaries (boat docks, marinas, launch ramps, lake houses, cabins, etc.).

Yeah, that pesky 4th Amendment and all.

 

[fredg]

Seems pretty clear... no concealed weapons.... period

February 22, 2010
New Federal Law Pertaining To Firearms on National Park/National Wildlife Service Lands Is Not Applicable at USACE Projects and Facilities
All -- a new law regarding firearms on some specific federal properties takes effect next week. This is not new information for us, and we have been reviewing it for quite a while. Counsel has been fully engaged. We offer the following guidance:

1. Section 512 of the Credit Card Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-024) pertains to possession of firearms and allows an individual to possess an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park Service or National Wildlife Refuge System provided that the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm and the possession is in compliance with the law of the State in which the National Park/Refuge is located. This law becomes effective on 22 February 2010 on property under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

2. Public Law 111-024 does not apply to Corps projects or facilities. The passage of this new law does not affect application of Title 36 regulations (36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a) prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and waters administered by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies. The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the NRM Gateway at: http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/emp...fs/title36.pdf.

3. 36 C.F.R. § 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. § 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5 U.S.C. §§ 551-706).

4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park entrances with No Firearms signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a and EP 310-1-6b) and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations Project Managers as coordinated appropriately with other Corps elements. Information related to this matter will also be posted for public awareness on the NRM Gateway.

5. HQUSACE POCs for this matter are Stephen Austin, Natural Resources Manager, Operations (for Visitor Assistance policy and program administration information), 202-761-4489, [email protected]; and Milt Boyd, Assistant Counsel, Office of Chief Counsel (for regulatory questions on federal lands) at 202-761-8546, [email protected].

Provided for your attention and appropriate action.
Michael G. Ensch, SES

 

[brboyer]

Yeah, that was posted already.

 

[fredg]

Actually not... what I posted is from a memo from the USACE, the text I highlighted does not appear in this thread (at least not that I can find).

I sent an email to the USACE headquarters in DC asking them to clarify if I am able to unload my concealed carry weapon and secure it and the ammo when entering USACE property. It would seem unloaded weapons are OK but ammunition is not, so even unloading the weapon would result in the possession of prohibited ammo.

If they answer me I will post it here.

 

[Husker_Fan]

The 4th Amendment might not protect you from a search. It's like walking into a federal courthouse or driving onto a military base. You waive the right to withhold permission to search by making the choice to enter the property.

 

[brboyer]

The 4th Amendment might not protect you from a search. It's like walking into a federal courthouse or driving onto a military base. You waive the right to withhold permission to search by making the choice to enter the property.

Can you provide citations to any case law to support this?

 

[bassdogs]

Update: Had an exchange of emails with Corp manager of DHL and the COE district HQ in Nashville. Bottom line is all they will comment is to puke up the rules and regs that have already been posted in this thread. When pressed for the difference between N Parks, NF, and other federal properties that have modified their regs to conform to the 2010 law. Their answer is "no answer" just a repeat of their old regs.

What I still don't understand is why does the 2010 law affect other Federal properties but not those managed by the Corp? Anybody have an answer?

 

[Frank Ettin]

...What I still don't understand is why does the 2010 law affect other Federal properties but not those managed by the Corp? Anybody have an answer?

The short answer is "because that's the way the law is written." And perhaps Corp of Engineers managed properties just fell through the cracks.

In any case, it's clear how the CoE is interpreting and planning to apply the law and its regulations. Whether or not there would be any likelihood of getting a federal judge to interpret the law as extending to CoE managed properties might be an interesting legal research project. But in any case, it would be an expensive and risky proposition for anyone who wanted to test it.

 

[brboyer]

[snip]

What I still don't understand is why does the 2010 law affect other Federal properties but not those managed by the Corp? Anybody have an answer?

The change in the law only prevents the Secretary of the Interior from regulating firearms on National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System. It has no impact on the Army Corps of Engineers who fall under the DOD.

Now whether Congress authorized the ACOE via the DOD to regulate firearms in this manner is the pertinent question.

The Secretary of the Interior shall not promulgate or enforce any regulation that prohibits an individual from possessing a firearm including an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System if--
(1) the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm; and
(2) the possession of the firearm is in compliance with the law of the State in which the unit of the National Park System or the National Wildlife Refuge System is located.

 

[bassdogs]

Agree, it appears that the 2010 law was narrowly written in that it specified Np and N wildlife areas. I have read a reported internal COE memo that pretty much shows that COE legal people studied the new law and determined that it could reasonably be determined that it did not cover COE properties because they do not fall into the category of Fed properties detailed in the law.

No one should expect the COE which is under the DOD to do the right thing, rather they will likely maintain their position unless and until Congress slides thru another amendment with broader language to include all Federal recreation and wildlife areas. The good news is that off the record, it appears that an internal memo also discourages COE commanders and resource managers from entering or searching private property, including boats, without probable cause of another crime.