Felt recoil comparison between a .44 Magnum (S&W) and a .45 Colt (Redhawk)?

[MCMXI]

I've owned a S&W 629 for quite a few years and have shot a bunch of full power magnum loads through it (for testing purposes) but mostly shoot .44 special or light .44 magnum loads because, to be honest, it's BRUTAL even with Hogue grips to shoot the "heavy" loads!! I bought it for hunting/camping/hiking etc since I wanted a reliable firearm with a lot of muzzle energy to handle any dangerous situations that I might find myself in. I'm about to take possession of a Ruger Redhawk in .45 Colt (KRH-45-4) and have been doing a lot of reading about the .45 Colt. In particular I've been reading through John Linebaugh's web pages and was interested in this comment ...

"In a technical sense the .45 Colt is a big caliber, large capacity case that must operate at low chamber pressure compared to many magnum rounds. The fact that it has more capacity allows this to happen. In general loadings the .45 Colt will do anything the .44 magnum will do with about 6000 to 10,000 CUP less chamber pressure, depending on the load and bullet weight used."

So now for my question .... given that the velocities of hot, +P type .44 Magnum and .45 Colt loads are similar, but the chamber/case pressures are quite a bit lower for the .45 Colt, does that equate to a considerable reduction in felt recoil for the .45 Colt .... assuming comparable weight of the revolvers being used? I can appreciate that lower chamber pressures will result in less stress/strain on the firearm but is felt recoil more a function of bullet velocity or chamber pressure? The energy of the burning powder is "converted" to heat, sound and kinetic energy for the bullet and probably other forms of energy too but how does all this relate to felt recoil.

Thanks for any feedback on this topic which I've been thinking about for days now.

 

[.38 Special]

Well, generally speaking, .45 Colt loads are a lot milder than .44 Magnums. I have to believe that Mr. Linebaugh is referring to hot handloads in the Colt.

So again speaking generally, the Colt recoil is softer and slower than the .44, when factory loads are used.

Handloaded, the .45 is capable of outdoing the .44 in terms of energy, effectiveness, and recoil.

Short answer, though, is that recoil is almost entirely a function of bullet weight, ejecta weight, velocity, and firearm weight. Chamber pressure is essentially meaningless when determining recoil.

HTH!

 

[Walkalong]

With factory .45 Colt loads, that Redhawk will be a pussycat to shoot. Loaded up hot, it is similar to .44 Mag recoil, but the .44 Mag Redhawks give less felt recoil, at least to me, than the Smith 29's.

 

[gizamo]

And if you want the ultimate in felt recoil reduction, try the .45 Colt in a Ruger Bisley...You'll either hate it or fall in love with it. It feels that different. The gun will give you more of a push and roll, then a sharp rap.

It is the gripframe angle and the difference in feel that most shooters find different. But once you get use to it, and if your one of the ones that likes the feel ~ it is hard to go back to anything else...

giz

 

[gizamo]

And if you want the ultimate in felt recoil reduction, try the .45 Colt in a Ruger Bisley...You'll either hate it or fall in love with it. It feels that different. The gun will give you more of a push and roll, then a sharp rap.

It is the gripframe angle and the difference in feel that most shooters find different. But once you get use to it, and if your one of the ones that likes the feel ~ it is hard to go back to anything else...

giz

 

[Sistema1927]

Pressure doesn't figure into the recoil computation. Mass times velocity, regardless of what it takes to move that mass at that velocity.

 

[Daizee]

Wouldn't peak chamber pressure and the slope of the pressure curve translate into recoil acceleration? The gun begins to recoil at the moment the bullet begins to move in the case. If the pressure is higher and the curve steeper, that push goes both (all) directions.

My assumption would be that the .44mag would reach peak recoil velocity faster than the .45. Whether or not that's detectable in your hand, I dunno. This is also a slow powder vs. fast powder issue. I don't know, but do hot .45colt loads typically use faster or slower powders than the .44mag? It might be hard to devise a perfect comparison.

It could be the other way around: the .44 reaches higher pressure slower, and the .45 reaches lower pressure more quickly. In which case my expectations should be reversed, given equal exit masses and velocities

Maybe I'm just talking out my forcing cone.

-Daizee

 

[MCMXI]

This is also a slow powder vs. fast powder issue. I don't know, but do hot .45colt loads typically use faster or slower powders than the .44mag?

From what I can gather, the "better" .45 Colt loads use slower powders such as H-110 which is quite a bit slower than W231 which is a popular choice for the .44 Magnum.

Pressure doesn't figure into the recoil computation. Mass times velocity, regardless of what it takes to move that mass at that velocity.

I would have thought that recoil would have more to do with the acceleration of the bullet and overcoming the bullet's inertia rather than the momentum of the bullet. I'm wondering if the integral of the pressure/time plot for the two revolvers shooting similar rounds would be similar, more of a hump for the .45 Colt with a lower max value, and a sharper, taller peak for the .44 Magnum, so as Daizee mentioned, the slope of the .44 Magnum curve would be a lot steeper due to a faster burn rate which would be felt as heavier recoil. It looks like I might have to get some empirical data by firing both with heavy loads since this theoretical stuff is tricky!

 

[VA27]

I can fire a lot more hot 45's in my Redhawk before my hand starts bleeding than I can in a 629 Mountain Gun.

Hope this helps.

 

[MCMXI]

I can fire a lot more hot 45's in my Redhawk before my hand starts bleeding than I can in a 629 Mountain Gun.

VA27, Do you mean 629 or 625 Mountain Gun? If you do in fact mean 629 then that's good news.

Added on edit after a Google search on 629 Mountain Gun:

I have a 629 but don't know if it's a Mountain Gun. I thought that the 625 was the Mountain Gun but now I'm going to have to do some research to figure out what I've got since I bought it used.

Thanks.

 

[.38 Special]

Wouldn't peak chamber pressure and the slope of the pressure curve translate into recoil acceleration? The gun begins to recoil at the moment the bullet begins to move in the case. If the pressure is higher and the curve steeper, that push goes both (all) directions.

My assumption would be that the .44mag would reach peak recoil velocity faster than the .45. Whether or not that's detectable in your hand, I dunno.

At extremes, that's sort of true, but for practical purposes makes no difference. For instance, a blackpowder rifle spitting out a 250 grain ball at XXXX fps will feel different than the same weight rifle firing the same bullet at the same speed with a fast smokeless powder. The recoil impulse does feel "quicker" with the much, much faster burn of smokeless powder.

This is also a slow powder vs. fast powder issue. I don't know, but do hot .45colt loads typically use faster or slower powders than the .44mag? It might be hard to devise a perfect comparison.

The classic powder for the .44 is 296. The classic powder for hot .45s is H-110. To the best of my knowledge these powders come out of the same spout -- I mean exactly the same thing.

Maybe I'm just talking out my forcing cone.

I'm going to steal that line!

 

[cookekdjr]

First of all, you really have to work at it to get any recoil out of a Redhawk. I had a stainless 7.5" Redhawk and shooting .44 specials out of it was like shooting a 22lr.
Second, I have found .45 LC to be little gentler than the .44 mag. Sure, in a Redhawk you can load it to .454 levels and shoot elephant gun loads out of it and you will feel recoil for sure. But how hot do you really need to load? A 250gr hardcast bullet at 950 fps will kill just about anything. Not impressive on paper, but it will shoot clean through just about any animal alive. The penetration is so far its like its shooting through butter.
I think the Redhawk route will get you where you want to go.
-David

 

[Ultima-Ratio]

Is This An Episode Of Jay Leno Jay-Walking?

I believe Linebaughs pressure comparisons confuse noobs, a slim percentage reduction in pressures means zero in subjective recoil perception!

Simply put, fire a 300gner@1300fps from a .45 LC and from a .44 Maggie in the Ruger Redhawks, TRY and feel the difference?

How in the world a black powder load of 250s@900fps became bear loads is beyond my comprehension!

 

[VA27]

1858 I had a 629 Mt Gun (44 mag) and it beat me up so much that I sold it and bought a 625 Mt Gun (45 Colt). The reason being that the Mt Guns are relatively light, like 39oz, the same weight as a 1911.

The Redhawk 4" is a little heavier and a lot stronger. I used heavy loads in my 45 Bisley Blackhawk and I was always afraid that one would sneak into the 625 and wreck it or my hand. NOW I have to worry about my Redhawk loads sneaking into the Blackhawk...but not much!

The Mountain Guns, 629(44Mag), 625(45 Colt and 45ACP), 686(357Mag), 657(41Mag) and 29(blue steel 44Mag) all have the tapered barrel and say 'Mountain Gun' on the barrel.

 

[MCMXI]

Thanks to everyone for the VERY helpful and informative replies ... it's greatly appreciated.

VA27, thanks for explaining the Mountain Gun models ... I have a 629 but now I know for sure it's not an MG ...

 

[Hutch]

VA27, why would you sell the 629? If recoil was the problem, .44 Specials was the solution. In common factory loads, there's not all that much difference in power/recoil. Not jammin' ya, just curious.

 

[VA27]

Hutch, I'm a long time 45 fan and when the 625 came out I jumped on it. I even carried it on duty 'til my dept. went semi-auto.

 

[Hutch]

Cool. I have only ever had 1 .45 Colt revolver, and 1 Contender barrel. Just never caught the bug, I guess. I have 4 DA and 2 SA .44M revolvers, plus a Marlin carbine. I fully accept that a heavy .45 Colt in a firearm that will take the pressure is more powerful (by whatever standard you choose) than the .44M.

 

[Phil DeGraves]

From what I can gather, the "better" .45 Colt loads use slower powders such as H-110 which is quite a bit slower than W231 which is a popular choice for the .44 Magnum.

W231 is a fast burning powder for light target loads. You can load .44 mag with it in a medium velocity load but to optimize the potential of the round, the slower burning powders like H110 and 296 would be preferred for both the .44 and the .45. .44 mag brass is usually thicker and than .45 brass and of course, cylinder wall thickness is better with the .44, so the guns can take more pressure.

 

[.38 Special]

.44 mag brass is usually thicker and than .45 brass and of course, cylinder wall thickness is better with the .44, so the guns can take more pressure.

The latter is quite true, but the former is urban legend. Some of us have been trying to stamp it out for years! A long time ago I sectioned a bunch of cases and found essentially no difference between .45 and .44. There was a lot of difference between brands, but not between calibers.

And of course, folks like Linebaugh and Bowen have been chambering 5 shot Colts for many years, and these guns are routinely fired with pressures exceeding .44 Magnum pressures by 10,000 PSI. In Bowen's "Custom Revolver" book he notes that he has reloaded Federal Colt cases a couple of dozen times at these pressure levels without losing a case.

 

[Beagle-zebub]

In Bownen's "Custom Revolver" book he notes that he has reloaded Federal Colt cases a couple of dozen times at these pressure levels without losing a case.

!!!
Sweet!

 

[MCMXI]

OK ... so which load would result in more felt recoil in a .45 Colt?

250 grain Hornady XTP 26.5 grains of H-110 1455 fps 29,800 CUP

300 grain Hornady XTP 22.2 grains of H-110 1198 fps 30,100 CUP


Using the TAYLOR KNOCK-OUT FORMULA as follows:

Bullet Weight (in grains) X Caliber (in inches) X Velocity ÷ 7000 = Knock Out (KO)


(250 x .452 x 1455)/ 7000 = 23.49 KO

(300 x .452 x 1198)/ 7000 = 23.21 KO


These loads appear to have very similar KO performance, but in the real world, which load would have more recoil and which load would have a better chance of stopping a charging bear? John Linebaugh doesn't seem to have much regard for jacketed hollow point bullets ... he prefers the cast claiming that they're better for hunting which is counter intuitive to me. I thought the whole point of JHP bullets is that they expand and do a tremendous amount of damage.

Thanks.

 

[.38 Special]

There are a number of online recoil calculators with which you can answer those questions. Here is one. Generally speaking, the heavier slower bullet will recoil more and penetrate more deeply.

As for cast vs. JHP, it's important to keep in mind that big bore handgun bullets come out of the barrel "pre-expanded". They're big enough already, so the goal becomes penetration -- and nothing penetrates like a cast solid.

Hollow points and soft points can be very effective, but with the generally low energies available from handguns, you've got to be careful that your HP/SP gets deep enough. The "tremendous amount of damage" is too often synonymous with "nasty flesh wound" in my experience.

 

[MCMXI]

.38, thanks ... I used the calculator in the link and it spat out the following:

Bullet: 250 gr
Recoil Impulse (lb sec): 2.08
Firearm Velocity (fps): 24.97
Free recoil energy (ft/lb): 26.02

Bullet: 300 gr
Recoil Impulse (lb sec): 1.99
Firearm Velocity (fps): 23.82
Free recoil energy (ft/lb): 23.69


So it seems that the 300 grain load may be more effective and easier to shoot. The reviews at MidwayUSA.com of the 250 and 300 grain XTP bullets from Hornady indicate that penetration isn't a problem. I'll still be looking at cast bullets though and may end up ordering Laser Cast 300 grain FP from Oregon Trail.

 

[Stainz]

I owned .45 Colts in 5.5" SS Bisley BH & RH, as well as 4" 625MG, at the same time as a 4" 629MG. I tried several 'real' .44 Magnums, the nastiest seemingly the UMC 180gr SJHP screamer, in that .44 Magnum MG. The tests involved the standard Hogues (Ouch!), my svelt & pretty rounded Ahrends non-fg cocobolo stock (Big Ouch!!), and the then new Hogue made-for-S&W .500 Magnum monogrip (Wow recoil control... still significant muzzle rise, however.). Comparing some mediocre .44 Magnums (240gr FP @ 980 fps) with those .500 Magnum Hogues to some slightly +P .45 Colts (255gr @950 fps) from the 5.5" RH - with it's stock wood grips - was revealing. Over 900 fps, the RH became less comfortable to shoot - recall mine had the wood RH grip. My wife kept it as her bedside 'house gun', as she enjoyed plinking with it.

Also, not considered in the equation, the RH, with OEM springs, still had the odd ftf - and I use Federal primers - but mainly with slow DA pulls. With that drooping ejector star, it would skip over the .45 Colt's dimunitive rim, making reloads troublesome. My two 625MGs have never had a reloading or ftf problem - and they sport lighter springs, making them a joy to shoot. I traded that Bisley BH for another 625MG - and sold the RH.

I replaced my 629MG with a 2 oz heavier standard 4" 629, which has larger trigger & hammer - and orange ramp/white outline sights vs the MG's black/black - and you bet it sports a Hogue .500 Magnum monogrip - like it's similar but 2" longer sibling. That will be my 'go to' for 'real' power. Of course, the 625MG in .45 Colt is no slouch - it, in .45 ACP variant, is rated at over 22kpsi, vs the standard 14 kpsi of the .45 Colt. I agree with the big gun guys - the 25 & 625 .45 Colts are more capable - but I have no way of knowing the pressure of some of the +P .45 Colt loads, so I'll remain 'close' to max specs for SAAMI standard .45 Colts in my MGs - which are very comfortable with the square conversion fg-ed Ahrends cocobolo stocks. Even in just that realm, it is nearly a 'perfect packing pistol'! I don't think of a 250gr Speer #4484 Gold Dot or a 255gr LSWC at 850+ fps as 'nuclear', but it should take care of anything I see here in the woods or urban jungle. And, should I need more 'emphasis', there is always the Hogue .500 Magnum gripped 629! Yeah, I like S&Ws.

Stainz