FFL Transfer to Under 21

[Packman]

Hey folks, I have a question.

I've been looking through the Federal/Florida laws, and I'm curious. Obviously an FFL can't sell a handgun to anyone under 21. But, could an FFL do a transfer to a person between 18 and 21? As in, facilitate a private sale, but still allow for a background check, etc?

Thanks,

Packman

 

[Solo Flyer]

Packman this ATF reg seems to allow it:

B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3

What do you think?

 

[Packman]

Hmm. Interesting. I haven't seen anything that expressly forbids it, but I've also seen nothing that expressly allows it, or clearly explains it.

Solo, I'm not sure that reg really addresses the issue. Where I'm going with this is to see whether or not it's possible. I know many people aren't comfortable selling a firearm to an 18, 19 or 20 year old, but if it goes through an FFL+NICS check, then problems can be assuaged.

Can you direct me to where you found that reg? I'd like to poke around some there.

 

[Packman]

I'm only asking about intrastate transfers. In FL, it's legal for someone under 21 to possess/own a pistol. Of course a straw purchase is illegal, and I'm not interested in jail time. That's why I'm asking here, to determine what I can and can't do.

I'm not asking about my parents getting me a pistol, I'm asking about doing a private sale (legal in my state) and transferring it through an FFL to eliminate liability for the seller.

 

[brickeyee]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faqindex.htm


links to the BATFE FAQ on firearms.

In many states it's unlawful for a person under 21 yrs to be in possession of a handgun.

Most states restrict possession of handguns to 18 and over.
Check your states laws.
The feds restrict purchase from an FFL to 21.
You also cannot purchase handgun ammunition if you are under 21.

 

[Solo Flyer]

Can you direct me to where you found that reg? I'd like to poke around some there.

brickeyee beat me to it!Thank you,sir.
And Packman, why not just talk to your local FFL guy and ask if it's feasible.
It's a background check you're trying to get,not a sale.

 

[kurtmax]

If your state allows possession of a handgun under 21 than someone can buy one and give it to you (as a gift).

Also, there is no such thing as 'handgun ammunition'. It's illegal for someone to sell you ammunition if they believe it's going to be used in a handgun, no matter what caliber it is. I'm only 20 and I buy 9x19mm all the time. Even at wal-mart the computer asks if it's for a handgun. I just say 'no'.

 

[Packman]

Also, there is no such thing as 'handgun ammunition'. It's illegal for someone to sell you ammunition if they believe it's going to be used in a handgun, no matter what caliber it is.

Indeed. Luckily, there's no such thing as a straw purchase on ammo.

And Packman, why not just talk to your local FFL guy and ask if it's feasible.
It's a background check you're trying to get,not a sale.

Because the only local FFL I know is a flaming a-hole on anything handgun related around me, since I'm under 21. He gets grumpy even answering questions about stuff. He's been happy to sell me 2 rifles though, and almost a shotgun. So, I'm looking to feel out options before I go look elsewhere.

I'm having a hard time following the relative pronouns in this thread.

Which part? Maybe I can be more clear.

 

[Wes Janson]

If you're between 18 and 20, and live in Florida, you may legally purchase a handgun from another Florida state resident who is not an FFL. You may not buy a handgun from an FFL. You may possess both handgun and handgun ammunition, but may not purchase handgun ammunition. However, an individual over the age of 21 may purchase ammunition and give it to you.

 

[Solo Flyer]

Quote:
And Packman, why not just talk to your local FFL guy and ask if it's feasible.
It's a background check you're trying to get,not a sale.

Because the only local FFL I know is a flaming a-hole on anything handgun related around me, since I'm under 21. He gets grumpy even answering questions about stuff. He's been happy to sell me 2 rifles though, and almost a shotgun. So, I'm looking to feel out options before I go look elsewhere.

I now fully understand your problem.
Go to this website,plug in your zip code and they will give you many more options for local firearms dealer's.
I think you'll then be able to find an FFL who's not a fool:

http://www.galleryofguns.com

 

[kurtmax]

Yep, as Wes said you can definitely have someone else buy the ammo and then buy it from them immediately. Straw purchase only applies to buying firearms.

You could also buy ammo online. Many places ask your age, but some simply ask if it's legal for you to possess the ammo where you live. Since there is no such thing as handgun ammo, your word that you are buying it for a rifle is good enough

For example: I buy my 9x19mm for my cruddy Hi-Point carbine. I just happen to have a few 9x19mm pistols laying around and the ammo gets mixed up! I mean, I'm not going to make separate piles in my ammo stash.

 

[waterhouse]

But, could an FFL do a transfer to a person between 18 and 21?

No. When a handgun (any gun) comes in from someone, it gets logged into the bound book. For it to go out of the bound book, you'll need to fill out a 4473. One of the boxes on the 4473 is for your date of birth, and one of the boxes is also for whether the gun being transfered is a handgun or a long gun.

If the person filling out the form is under 21 based on the date of birth, and the box for handgun is checked, the transfer cannot be completed.

As you know, you can buy a gun directly from another resident, but a dealer really can't get involved to facilitate.

 

[Husker1911]

Interstate transfer of a handgun must be FFL to FFL.

Are you positive about this? Thank you.

 

[Solo Flyer]

Quote:
Interstate transfer of a handgun must be FFL to FFL.

Are you positive about this? Thank you.

From the ATF:

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]


B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]


A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]



(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier? [Back]


A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

 

[Husker1911]

"Interstate transfer of a handgun must be FFL to FFL."

If my state doesn't forbid it, aren't I allowed to (personally) send my handgun to an out-of-state FFL to complete a sale?

 

[Solo Flyer]

If my state doesn't forbid it, aren't I allowed to (personally) send my handgun to an out-of-state FFL to complete a sale?

Yes.See ATF Regs B7 and B8 in my post #16 above yours.You must use a common carrier not the USPS to ship a handgun so B8 applies.
Forgot to add "Go Huskers!"

 

[Husker1911]

Thanks so much! Fall camp starts August 4. Go Huskers!

 

[brickeyee]

It's illegal for someone to sell you ammunition if they believe it's going to be used in a handgun, no matter what caliber it is.

That would make it "handgun ammunition" wouldn't it?

 

[crushbup]

It may be "ammunition for use in a handgun," but not necessarily "handgun ammunition." The former means that it is ammunition a handgun can use, but is not limited to handguns. The latter is an exclusive term, and there are relatively few types of handgun-exclusive ammunition.

 

[Wes Janson]

That's a technicality I'm not sure I'd be willing to haggle over with a court of law.

 

[kurtmax]

While you still can't transfer in your specific case, just because it asks for your age on a form doesn't mean you can't legally.

For example, Form 1s for making an SBR/SBS/Suppressor/AOW/etc have a checkbox that asks if you are 21. You can actually make these types of weapons if you are 18 or older, and you just attach a little note to the application explaining this...

 

[AirForceShooter]

If you're both in Florida why bother with an FFL?

AFS

 

[FCFC]

If you're both in Florida why bother with an FFL?

He's under 21 and wants to buy a handgun. Even though it can be legal to do so, FL resident to FL resident, many sellers don't want to sell to a 18-20 year old. (I don't.)

So, he figures that going through a NICS check will make it more palatable to some sellers.

Not a bad idea, really.

 

[Packman]

He's under 21 and wants to buy a handgun. Even though it can be legal to do so, FL resident to FL resident, many sellers don't want to sell to a 18-20 year old. (I don't.)

So, he figures that going through a NICS check will make it more palatable to some sellers.

Not a bad idea, really.

Thats it exactly.

However,

No. When a handgun (any gun) comes in from someone, it gets logged into the bound book. For it to go out of the bound book, you'll need to fill out a 4473. One of the boxes on the 4473 is for your date of birth, and one of the boxes is also for whether the gun being transfered is a handgun or a long gun.

If the person filling out the form is under 21 based on the date of birth, and the box for handgun is checked, the transfer cannot be completed.

That told me exactly what I needed to know. Thanks for the help, everyone. Wish it would've worked.

 

[AirForceShooter]

That's pretty much my question.
How would he get an NICS check run in the first place. It's not like you can walk into an FFL and ask them to run a check.
And if it was run how would he prove it to a buyer?
It's not like you get a piece of paper that says "approved" to take home.

AFS