FFL

[Nazirite]

I’ve read up on the requirements but I have some questions. Do you have to own a business to get one of these licences, another words if I don’t plan on selling any guns right now can I still get a FFL? I assume you have to buy guns from a distributor, not directly from the manufacturer.

Right now I live in an apt, will that complicate things? I plan to buy a house in the next two years, it all depends on when I get transferred. I only plan on buying maybe two or three guns per year, but my savings should more than pay for the licence fee.

 

[Cortland]

I don't know all the details, but they say that the days of the "kitchen table" Type 01 FFL are long gone. It's my understanding that in order to get and keep a Type 01, you need a store front, set operating hours, business license from your locality, minimum sales figure, secure storage, etc. etc.

You can, of course, get a Type 03 C&R FFL.

 

[EghtySx]

I have seen internet gun sales places with no store front. In fact, a trend in all business is to have a website and no brick and mortar storefront at all right?

 

[Chipperman]

The state laws are much more restrictive than Fed laws. If you can satisfy the state, then Fed should be ok.

 

[Jim K]

I have preached this sermon before, mostly to deaf ears, but I will try again. If you plan to go into the gun business, the FFL is the least of your concerns. You need to comply with local zoning laws, state and local business license laws, OSHA rules, IRS regulations, SSA rules for any employees, and the requirements of your insurance company. If you don't incorporate, one mistake could cost you every cent you ever make beyond bare necessities. If you don't have insurance, ditto.

You need to have a bookkeeper and accountant. You have to file income taxes for your business. Etc. Oh, and a lawyer on retainer, just in case.

Then you have to have security measures as required by BATFE; at a minimum they require barred windows and doors, and usually an alarm system. Keep proper records, and play by the rules, even though they are complex, confusing, and constantly changing.

As a side issue, if you are going to get a license just so you can buy wholesale or supply your friends with cheap guns, think again. BATFE says you have to be in business, which means making money, not giving it away to keep the beer buddies happy.

You can get some good deals with a Collectors FFL (C&R license), but here again watch for those local and state laws, which could trip you up. And be a collector, not a source of supply for the gang, in any meaning of that term. Dealing in guns can lose you your license; having a gun you sold turn up in the wrong hands can get you put in jail.

Jim

 

[dukeofurl]

"Then you have to have security measures as required by BATFE; at a minimum they require barred windows and doors, and usually an alarm system. "

Jim, I have spoken with ATF on this issue and I recieved a different response. They said nothing of what you said is required. I have a response in writing that says the only criteria they look at is a compliance with local/state zoning directives.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Where's it say all that in the Second Amendment?

 

[RooK]

Unless you collect, a C&R is only good for discounts at places like Brownells. Well worth it just for that if you buy heavily there. But since it's a collectors license, you're not supposed to use it for 'other' people to purchase them firearms.

If you do go the FFL route and want to 'sell guns to the buddies', charge them wholesale + $10. You're still making a profit, thus you are running a business. I would personally run a part-time business out of it where you keep no inventory and have people order from catalogs for cost + 10 or 15 percent. Also, do cheap FFL transfers for people who buy guns off the internet. There are plenty of ways to have your cake and eat it to, just play by the rules and make some money off of what you enjoy. The biggest problem is local laws, but whatever you do, run your gun shop on seperate property. If the ATF feels like they want to pay a visit and you run the FFL out of your home (if local laws allow), then the ATF can go throughout you whole house doing what they need. Seperate property helps safeguard your private life.

I don't have an FFL, but this is what I've read about it. So please correct me if I made mistakes anywhere. Also, does anyone know a good site, besides the ATFs that gives information on obtaining an FFL and the regulations/rules involved?

dukeofurl, if the ATF tells you anything, get it in writing somewhere (rule book, certified letter, etc.). Otherwise they can change their mind in a moments notice to their advantage. It's been done so many times before it's not funny.

 

[Majic]

You must also actively attempt to sell guns for a profit. Even after you satisfy the local government you could be audited to see if you are indeed making a profit. This was done to eliminate those who got the license to just buy their personal weapons.

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Dukeofurl,

That may be the official line, but around here, a dealer who doesn't have at least bars on doors and windows won't get the license. I know one guy who deals from his basement in a rural area, and they have been after him for years to give up the license, although they can't quite make him do so. They did make him have a separate entrance, with a barred door and window and a steel door with a heavy lock going into the house.

In addition, MD has a lot of additional stuff, including a state license to deal in handguns and "assault rifles", which I didn't mention.

The hard fact is that times have changed. When I had a dealer's FFL years ago, I got it by mail ($1.00 per year) and never saw a fed. When I got tired of dealing with loonies (i.e., "friends" who wanted me to sell to them below my cost) I bundled up the book and license and sent them in. I decided to let someone else deal with those guys.

Today, I think you have to run a gun business as a business, not as a hobby or a way to buy cheap guns for your own use. This is not only to comply with the fed and state laws but a simple matter of making the whole thing worthwhile. Being a dealer really is a lot of trouble and work, and doing it for little or no reward seems sort of dumb.

Jim

 

[dukeofurl]

Ah! So it may be the state that is placing the requirement indirectly as in - if you dont have bars, etc...you wont get the state license.

 

[ponyexpress]

I agree with duke. A friend of mine in Iowa had an FFL 01 and he had none of those security measures. I made a comment about it once and he said there were no regs requiring it.

He did the dealing on the side in addition to his normal business but because that he already had many of the things mentioned earlier. Business license, etc.

 

[Jim K]

It may be the state. I will check on it, but one dealer told me BATF insisted on the bars. The way it works is that if you want to deal in "regulated weapons" (handguns and "assault rifles") you need a state license. But you can't get the state license unless you have a dealers FFL. So I think BATF may work with the state to enforce their regs even if the dealer is not going to handle regulated weapons.

Some of the state regs are weird. If you have a C&R license, for example, you can legally "import" regulated firearms that are curios and relics. But you can't ever transfer in the state a regulated C&R gun you imported under your collectors license. You can't even sell it or trade it to a dealer. You have to send or take the gun out of state, then have someone (not necessarily a dealer), ship the gun back into the state to a state licensed dealer, who will officially transfer it to you or sell it for you.

Actually, I would think anyone with a store of firearms would want at least some protection against burglary, bars, safes, alarm system or whatever, whether such was required or not. These things are not totally effective in stopping a determined crook, but they discourage kids who might want to have a go at the local school with guns stolen from a dealer. The PR would definitely be "ungood".

Jim

 

[wprebeck]

I'm thinking about taking a different route for an FFL....gunsmithing.

Read on the BATFE's web page that an FFL is required for gunsmithing, so I'm looking into it a little further. I'm working on getting some armorer's certifications (got Glock and Remington so far, and am scheduled for Sig next month), as well as some basic gunsmithing school.

My state recently helped out FFL's in a big way, by making it illegal for any local ordinances to prevent FFL's from being allowed in a zoning location that allows for other businesses. So, since the guy 4 doors down is a CPA, and runs an accounting firm out of his house, I should now be allowed to have an FFL, and start a small gunsmithing shop.

If this works out, I may have a viable career going for when I retire from my current job. I'm trying to have things like finances planned well in advance, so I odn't ave to stay at this hellhole any longer than necessary.

Anyone know any more about the gunsmithing thing?

 

[dukeofurl]

"Actually, I would think anyone with a store of firearms would want at least some protection against burglary, bars, safes, alarm system or whatever, whether such was required or not. "

If I'm operating a secondary business and the only people that know I deal in firearms are those I trust - I dont plan on having that problem.

I know several attorneys that have FFL's and do transfers for friends. Business premises? Their offices.

Would *YOU* go to an attorney that had bars on their windows, doors, and enough klaxon horns to rival a nuclear missile silo?

 

[PvtPyle]

There are no requirements for an alarm system or a vault, or bars on your windows at the National level. There may be local regs about it, but not upon high. They have yet to mention anything about this to me in any of my compliance inspections or the preliminary insoection for my SOT (and this is out of my house/shop, so I guess you could say I am a kitchen table dealer. There are still quite a few of us still around that make a decent living doing it.)

You do have to comply with state and local laws as well. I have never heard of getting a state FFL prior to getting a federal one, but in some communist states that may be the case. I have not had to deal with OSHA or the EPA in my several years of doing this, but that may change now with the SOT.

You can see that things very GREATLY from town to town and state to state. So, instead of getting info from all over the country this is what you should do:

1) Call the local ATF office and speak with the compliance agent. You are going to get to know him fairly well over the next three or more years. Explain what you want to do, where and how you are going to do it and get his input. Most of them I have dealt with have been professional and decent to deal with.

2) Call your local business licensing offices for your town/city. They will let you know if you need any special licenses like a conditional use permit and what the local ordnances are with this type of business. They can also help you get your local CLEO info lined out, and if needed your local fire marshal inspection.

3) Call your local BCI office and then your local CLEO. Repeat step one in exchanging info. You are going to get to know the girls at BCI over the years as you do back ground checks. You will also have to send copies of your application and any future amendments to the CLEO so it is good to know who and where you need to start.

4) Go around to the other gun stores in the area. DO NOT tell them what you are doing, they probably dont want anymore competition and you may not get good intel (especially if it is a tough market to begin with). At the same time, DO NOT waste their time with lots of questions and nonsense. Just let your eyes and ears get what you need. Look at what they are carring. Look at how busy they are. Look at how they act towards you and the other customers (did someone greet you when you came in, do they answer customers questions with patience and understanding?). This will give you a good idea of what kind of store they have and what kind of market you are dealing with. The empty stores may be new, or they may be full of aholes and/or have insane prices. The fuller stores will more than likely have a wide selection (so you need to pay attention what the customers are looking at) and they treat their customers well. Take a lesson from both types.


Yes it can be a real pain in dealing with some customers and the authorities (and most of the time they are not authorities on this subject, even though they are in the regulation and enforcement business). But be patient and friendly and you will get thru it. As for the constantly changing regs, the ATF lists them on their web site and you can usually see what is pending under the proposed changes section. You should also get letters from the ATF in a news letter format to help keep you up to speed. I really doubt your local government does this but there are other ways to keep ahead of the game.

I hope this helps.

 

[dukeofurl]

See! I was right!

BTW - What the hell is a BCI office? You say "You can see that things very GREATLY from town to town and state to state. So, instead of getting info from all over the country..." and yet I'm unsure as to what the hell you're talking about.

 

[PvtPyle]

BCI- Buerau of Criminal Identification


"You can see that things very GREATLY from town to town and state to state. So, instead of getting info from all over the country..."

In other words, everyone here can give you different advice based on what they experience in their area. And they differ so greatly based on the local laws. Dont take our advice as to what to expect, call around and get the real story from your local government.

 

[Werewolf]

It seems to me that the initial investment required to open a brick and mortar gun store/gunsmith operation would be well into the 100's of thousands of dollars.

OTOH if one was retired and living in the country not too far from a major city it seems to me that getting an FFL and doing transfers, special orders and gunsmithing might very well be a fun way to supplement one's retirement income without a lot of start up expense and without a huge amount of work.

I haven't thought that particular idea through completely but it is something I've considered for the future.

Anyone out there have any ideas on the above or is already doing something similar.

Comments?

 

[Majic]

As far as gunsmithing just don't keep an inventory of firearms tying up your funds. Order firearms as the need arises. Spend you money in parts and precision tools.
Unless you plan on doing a lot of rifle barrel work then you don't need a 6 foot bed lathe. The small lathes (even the table top models) with the adjustable heads that doubles as a mill works extremely well with handguns. It can do triple duty as a drill press also, but will be more of a pain that way. Remember, your equipment doesn't have to be brand new. Machines bought from closing or expanding businesses represent some great bargains.
Learn shop machining, welding and you are well on your way to gunsmithing as many things you can them make yourself saving the inital investment.

 

[Nazirite]

Thanks for all the info, unfortunately it sounds like way too much trouble for what it’s worth in my case. They is no way I could start up a gun store, don’t have the time or money.

 

[Jim K]

Sorry, Nazirite, that is the way it is today. BATFE takes the position (per the law) that, with the exception of a collector's license, an FFL is a business license. They won't give dealers' licenses to hobbyists or folks who just want to buy guns at a discount. They are backed in this by gun dealers' associations, for obvious reasons.

For many people, a collector's FFL ("C&R license") will help the hobbyist and some wholesalers will give discounts to C&R licensees. Of course, dealing, that is buying for resale, is a no-no, so getting guns for your buddies is not recommeded if you want to stay out of trouble.

Jim

 

[45Frank]

Well any FFL's yet!

Well has the origional poster tried to get his License or not.
I live in a town with no corp. so I went to the local sheriff and county and I explained I will be appling and they could have cared less. Just told to send in proper paperwork when the time comes.
Contacted the BATF and they sent me a book the size of a small phonebook and I read most of it and basically me and the person in there Atlanta office came to the conclusion that due to no local zoning or ordinaces I would only need a safe(anything with a lock). No alarms, bars and so on. He did say the paperwork would be scrutenized though. I asked about min. hours of operation and the fact that I was going to operate out of an Office in my barn he said a non issue if the local's don't care. .
So any feedback before I sent this thing in next week?

 

[solareclipse]

well you can keep an in home address if you got your FFL from before the restriction came in since i know people who do it and nobody is knocking on their door to tell them otherwise.

however for new issues, they want a commercially zoned address of business. while they will still issue them to residences, they might personally come on over for a chat first.

it really depends. but generally they now want commercially zoned business address.

 

[45Frank]

Well like I stated there is no Zoning in my area. I live in an unincorp. town and county only has jurisdiction over our well and septic. Did do some research, talked to scheriff an county building dept. and there were no concerns, SO. Well the application states if you are turned down you get you money back so what the H___.
Thanks for the feedback.
The area I will use is actually not in my home but about 6oo' away in a converted barn, the room is secure with heat, electric, phone and so on.
Come on there has to be someone here who has applied reciently.

well you can keep an in home address if you got your FFL from before the restriction came in since i know people who do it and nobody is knocking on their door to tell them otherwise.

however for new issues, they want a commercially zoned address of business. while they will still issue them to residences, they might personally come on over for a chat first.

it really depends. but generally they now want commercially zoned business address.