Fine Figure of a Man
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No, my own cast with a Lyman mold
Finally joined the 45-70 group, now to start reloading
- Thread starter Lennyjoe
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GooseGestapo
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My favorite.45/70 load is the RCBS 300gr FNGC (322gr) over 20.0gr #2400. It gets 1,600fps from 18.5” GuideGun and 1,700+ from 22” 1895 Remlin.
Also, the 340gr Lee FN. over 20.0gr #2400 (Lee 1.58 measure). Sized .459”, SPG lube, range scrap.
See attached 50yd target!
3-shots, .50” hole.
.45/70 “squirrel” load?
Also, the 340gr Lee FN. over 20.0gr #2400 (Lee 1.58 measure). Sized .459”, SPG lube, range scrap.
See attached 50yd target!
3-shots, .50” hole.
.45/70 “squirrel” load?
Attachments
Wis-Harpo
Member
In 1984 when I had my Siamese Mauser re-barreled to 45-70, I shot 2200 fps rounds for use as a bear gun when I went to Canada ( may have been faster because I have a 26 inch barrel ) using IMR 4198. Two years ago I got a Remington Model 14 pump in 32 Rem. I chose IMR3031 to reload for it. I tried IMR3031 in my 45-70 with Hornady's 350 grain round nose. Hornady 350 grainers were hard to find for awhile. But now with more interest in 45-70's, they are available again. I tried 3 different speed loadings, 1400--1500--and 1600 fps. The two lower velocity loads gave about 2 inch groups. But the 1600 fps load gave a 7/8 inch 5 shot group. Every rifle has it's own node or several nodes, or fps load that it prefers. I haven't shot since early summer because I switched over to Sporting Clays to prepare for bird hunting. PS my rifle weighs 10+ pounds.
OP
OP
Lennyjoe
Member
highlander 5
Member
I use 4227 for my 45/70 loads with all weights of my cast bullets from 350 to 530gr out of a Browning 1885 and Shiloh Sharps long range express.
I have done it in .458 Win Mag. Size normally, then "neck" size the top of the case with a .45 Colt sizer, load 350 Gr .452 "blem" bullets I bought cheap.
mustanger98
Member
The parts I underlined... I was thinking of that... I remember 12grs of Unique and a 405gr Lazercast put a whomp on a heavy steel plate at 50yds with an H&R, but is that bullet deer-legal in Ohio? And what kind of terrain/distance is the OP dealing with?
I second that about the recoil pad... between it and a Past strap-on shoulder pad. I remember some factory-loaded 325gr JHP's... they got old fast.
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I really don't know why anyone uses any other powder than AA5744 in these big, low pressure cases. According to Accurate Arms, this powder was developed for the 45/120 case, I think they found an existing powder and it worked well, regardless of advertising hype, it works well.
You can see the velocities I measured during load testing and in several other 45/70 rifles.
45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel
405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
29-Apr-04 T = 80 °F
Ave Vel = 1294
Std Dev = 14
ES = 40
Low = 1274
High = 1314
N = 15
Group Size Very . good
405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F
Ave Vel = 1284
Std Dev = 23
ES = 80
Low = 1263
High = 1343
N = 12
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
15-Apr-05 T = 75 °F
Ave Vel = 1363
Std Dev = 25
ES = 97
Low = 1298
High = 1395
N = 20
Group Size good offhand at 100 yards
Winchester BPCR M1885 30" Badger barrel
Ladder Sights: 5 graduations per 1/4 inch major.
1/4 inch major is 25 MOA, 1 grad is 5 MOA, 1 Vernier is 1 MOA
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
29 May 2010 T = 89 °F
Ave Vel = 1324
Std Dev = 9
ES = 26
High = 1338
Low = 1312
N = 6
The 45/70 is a great cast lead bullet cartridge, I really doubt that jacketed bullets will provide any improvement on game, over a big, case bullet. The wound channels with cast bullets are totally adequate and the penetration excellent. I have shot cast in this Trapdoor, I have not slugged the barrel of this M1873, but it leaded something awful till I applied a huge amount of external grease to the bullets. I think the barrel is large compared to my commercial cast bullets.
M1873 Springfield Trapdoor 1884 rebuild 27" sight radius
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F
Ave Vel = 1302
Std Dev = 11
ES = 26
High = 1315
Low = 1289
N = 5
First round 15.5" high, rest, 19.5 to 23" high at 100 yards
Ballistic calculator: 100 yd zero, 25" drop at 200 yds, 82" drop at 300 yds
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
Heavily greased with Lubriplate 130A
14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F
Ave Vel = 1346
Std Dev = 15
ES = 38
High = 1371
Low = 1333
N = 5
If you use commercial cast bullets, I recommend you grease the heck out of them. Mine fouled badly until I externally greased them. Messy, but it cut out the lead fouling.
You can see that I used so much grease that grease was extruded down the sides of the shell casings, into the action.
Ungreased fired cases on left, greased, fired cases on right. Absolutely nothing bad happened outside of grease in the action. Considering the lead fouling reduction, I can live with that.
You can see the velocities I measured during load testing and in several other 45/70 rifles.
45/70 Martini Henry 26" Shilen Barrel
405 LRN 26.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
29-Apr-04 T = 80 °F
Ave Vel = 1294
Std Dev = 14
ES = 40
Low = 1274
High = 1314
N = 15
Group Size Very . good
405 LRN 27.0gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
24-Mar-04 T = 70 °F
Ave Vel = 1284
Std Dev = 23
ES = 80
Low = 1263
High = 1343
N = 12
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR
15-Apr-05 T = 75 °F
Ave Vel = 1363
Std Dev = 25
ES = 97
Low = 1298
High = 1395
N = 20
Group Size good offhand at 100 yards
Winchester BPCR M1885 30" Badger barrel
Ladder Sights: 5 graduations per 1/4 inch major.
1/4 inch major is 25 MOA, 1 grad is 5 MOA, 1 Vernier is 1 MOA
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
29 May 2010 T = 89 °F
Ave Vel = 1324
Std Dev = 9
ES = 26
High = 1338
Low = 1312
N = 6
The 45/70 is a great cast lead bullet cartridge, I really doubt that jacketed bullets will provide any improvement on game, over a big, case bullet. The wound channels with cast bullets are totally adequate and the penetration excellent. I have shot cast in this Trapdoor, I have not slugged the barrel of this M1873, but it leaded something awful till I applied a huge amount of external grease to the bullets. I think the barrel is large compared to my commercial cast bullets.
M1873 Springfield Trapdoor 1884 rebuild 27" sight radius
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F
Ave Vel = 1302
Std Dev = 11
ES = 26
High = 1315
Low = 1289
N = 5
First round 15.5" high, rest, 19.5 to 23" high at 100 yards
Ballistic calculator: 100 yd zero, 25" drop at 200 yds, 82" drop at 300 yds
405 LRN 27.5gr AA5744 R-P cases WLR trimmed 2.085"
Heavily greased with Lubriplate 130A
14 Aug 2014 T = 78 °F
Ave Vel = 1346
Std Dev = 15
ES = 38
High = 1371
Low = 1333
N = 5
If you use commercial cast bullets, I recommend you grease the heck out of them. Mine fouled badly until I externally greased them. Messy, but it cut out the lead fouling.
You can see that I used so much grease that grease was extruded down the sides of the shell casings, into the action.
Ungreased fired cases on left, greased, fired cases on right. Absolutely nothing bad happened outside of grease in the action. Considering the lead fouling reduction, I can live with that.
OP
OP
Lennyjoe
Member
No restrictions on bullet size/type that I’m aware of for the 45-70. Since we have a straight walled case restrictions, we are limited to a degree. A lot of flat farmland in middle parts of Ohio so shooting across a field is possibility. I’m a bow hunter most of the time so I’m usually in pretty thick foliage unless I head to the southern part with rolling hills for rifle. Flatter trajectory has its benefits when hunting in less dense vegetation or edge of fields so that’s the draw for lighter bullets with more speed from the 45-70. So many variables so working up a nice load with flatter trajectory is beneficial.
Like I said earlier, past recoil pad is used when shooting my .50 Beowulf and 12 gauge slug gun so I’m not shy of a bit of abuse on the range. One good wallop from tree stand is ok with me.
Charlie98
Member
Because there are quite a few other really good powders out there for the big .45's. I have a can of AA5744, so far, in my limited testing, I haven't seen anything that sets it apart from the other powders I'm using. That would be like saying '...any other powder than IMR4895 in the M1 Garand.'
It is definitely good stuff for .45-70 level power in .458 Win Mag cases.
Do you have any data for AA5744 and the 458 Win Mag?
I had not found any AA5744 data so I made some charge estimates, went out and tested my rifle with commercial cast bullets.
458 Win Mag M70 Winchester Classic barrel
405 Gr LRN 458 cast commercial 40.5 grs AA5744 wtd lot 1-2004 OAL 3.15" Fed 210S Win cases
23 Feb 2018 T = 80 °F
Ave Vel = 1491
Std Dev = 23
ES = 64
High = 1526
Low = 1462
N = 6
heavy external grease on bullets, some leading last 2" of barrel. Poor accuracy
405 Gr LRN 458 cast commercial 41.0 grs AA5744 wtd lot 1-2004 OAL 3.15" Fed 210S Win cases
23 Feb 2018 T = 80 °F
Ave Vel = 1533
Std Dev = 27
ES = 89
High = 1604
Low = 1515
N = 10
three shots touched 8.5" X 11" target.
The results became progressively worse the faster those cast bullets moved. By the time I was at 43.0 grs AA5744 and 1609 fps, none of the bullets hit the 8.5 X 11 target on the frame, and what hit the frame, were feet away. from the aimpoint. Most bullets missed a 6 foot by 6 foot target at 100 yards. I was so discouraged I took the scope off, it was an abominable 1 X 4 scope, I might as well have been looking through vasoline, and I have not as yet installed a better scope, and loaded any more rounds. I am of the opinion that I need to start with charge levels lower than 40.5 grs and 1491 fps, because even at this low velocity, the bullets are stripping out . Based on what I have read, the 458 Win Mag has a very long throat. The round is running at 60,000 psia, and the bullets are extremely thick, I guess jumping a huge distance was not as much an issue as pressures. I don't know if the thing will shoot well with cast bullets or not. It is not as if cast bullets were a consideration for this cartridge.
Have you been able to get a 458 Win to shoot with cast bullets?
Reeferman
Member
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- Jan 9, 2013
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- 1,259
What kind of grease is that you used? That would work in my 1873 Springfield Trapdoor with the 405 hollow based bullets I cast?
Probably hair gel which is mostly vasoline.
My commercial cast bullets leaded the barrel on my Trapdoor something awful. I had an old tube of lubriplate AA130 and greased up these 405 LRN cast bullets:
Fired cases showing that the grease is squeezed down the case sides, positively floating the case in grease.
the amount of grease that squeezed down the case and into the case was surprising. The first shot is the picture on the left, by the time I had a number of shots down the tube, you can see the amount of grease squeezed out of the chamber and into the action.
Point of impact changed as the barrel greased, but you know what?, NO LEADING!!! Blowing an extravagant amount of grease down the barrel positively prevented bullet leading. Accuracy still sucked, the barrel has pitting towards the muzzle and I have not slugged the thing. It is probably much larger than the bullet diameter.
I have not tried any lead in .458 Win Mag cases.
I did buy some SNS coated 405 Gr FP bullets to try with AA5744 at .45-70 levels in .458 Win Mag brass, but have yet to try them. They are 16 BHN. I hope they are up to the task of holding the rifling.
A Hornady 350 Gr JSP (FN) # 4503 over 46.0 Grs of AA 5744 moves out at just under 1800 FPS from my Ruger with a 24" barrel. My notes say I went by data I found in the AA PDF #3.5
45.0 Grs left some unburned powder, 46.0 cleaned up real nice and shot as well as I shoot that gun.
They may be too soft to take the ride and cannot hold the rifling. Is it shallow rifling? Do you know what BHN they are?
Millions of lead bullets have been shot in .45-70, so the velocity/pressure is doable with lead.
My notes say I went by data I found in the AA PDF #3.5 for .45-70 & .458 Win Mag. I wasn't trying to max out 5744 in .458 Win Mag, just produce an accurate load similar to .45-70 ballistics. 1800 FPS is under that, but it shoots well.
From AA 3.5 PDF
45-70 Government (Ruger No. 1 and 3 less than 40,000 psi)
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-20" ■ Primer: WIN WLR ■ Bullet Diameter .458"
5744 300 SIE HP FN 43.2 1,986 48.0 2,159 38,900 2.550
5744 350 HDY RN 39.4 1,771 43.8 1,929 38,000 2.550
5744 400 BAR FNSP 36.9 1,620 41.0 1,787 38,100 2.550
As you can see it took more powder in the bigger Win Mag case to get close to this max with the 350 gr Hornady bullet, naturally.
From AA 3.5 PDF
458 Winchester Magnum
Barrel: 24" ■ Twist: 1-14" ■ Primer: FED 215 ■ Bullet Diameter .458"
Reduced Loads
5744 405 CP WLNGC 45.9 1,909 51.0 2,170 59,708 3.000
5744 460 CP WFNGC 44.1 1,779 49.0 2,022 61,360 3.110
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Thanks for the data. My Win M70 has very shallow rifling, don't know the BHN, you can scratch the bullet with a thumb nail. They are not dead soft. I do have some jacketed bullets and may try those with the loads from the manuals you posted.
I have been loading and shooting the .45-70 since 1972.
I have hunted with it a little but I have shot it at the range a lot. I should say them since over the years I have owned a dozen different rifles. All but one are strong modern single shot. One was a Siamese Mauser bolt gun.
I added all the preceding because I enjoy shooting the .45-70 and hunting has little to do with it.
I have shot very heavy loads using 3031 and 4198 finding they produce too much recoil for long shooting sessions.
Instead my lshooting.soft cast lead bullets with Unique, 2400, 5744, 4227 and the discontinued SR4759.
My velocities run about 1100 fps to 1300 fps and make for a lot of enjoyable shooting.
Be careful with Unique since the case can hold double and triple charges. Loads using SR4759 and 20 to 1 lead-tin bullets of 500 grains often group close to one inch out of the heavy barreled Browning 1885 BPCR model rifles.
I have hunted with it a little but I have shot it at the range a lot. I should say them since over the years I have owned a dozen different rifles. All but one are strong modern single shot. One was a Siamese Mauser bolt gun.
I added all the preceding because I enjoy shooting the .45-70 and hunting has little to do with it.
I have shot very heavy loads using 3031 and 4198 finding they produce too much recoil for long shooting sessions.
Instead my lshooting.soft cast lead bullets with Unique, 2400, 5744, 4227 and the discontinued SR4759.
My velocities run about 1100 fps to 1300 fps and make for a lot of enjoyable shooting.
Be careful with Unique since the case can hold double and triple charges. Loads using SR4759 and 20 to 1 lead-tin bullets of 500 grains often group close to one inch out of the heavy barreled Browning 1885 BPCR model rifles.
Mowgli Terry
Member
I have used AAC 5744 in several 45-70's. Most recently with a 400gr. 457124 Lyman hand cast bullet. This powder works well enough for me in the old style rifles to make more experimentation unnecessary. For the trapdoors 5744 and the Lee Hollow base 400 grain bullet has give excellent accuracy. See what happens when you ask for good loads in the 45-70. You get a lifetime of good answers. Use only the most recent data for 5744. Double check in the Accurate website. I'm working up black powder loads using Lyman the 457125 500gr. bullets in my 458 caliber single shot rifles. As you can tell from these post loading for 45-70's is highly addictive.
Can I recommend a lead sled (at a very good price) for sighting in the rifle?
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...led-solo-sight-in-edition-rifle-shooting-rest
I don't have experience with it, but do have one on order. My 45-70 ate it's scope last year, and I finally got a new one on it and mostly sighted in this spring. So I wanted to do a last check this fall, and my neighbor was coming along to the range and brought his lead sled with. What a dream to to take those last couple shots knowing I was checking the scope and not me. Don't get me wrong, I like shooting it, but sighting in a 45-70 carbine on a bench isn't much fun.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/6...led-solo-sight-in-edition-rifle-shooting-rest
I don't have experience with it, but do have one on order. My 45-70 ate it's scope last year, and I finally got a new one on it and mostly sighted in this spring. So I wanted to do a last check this fall, and my neighbor was coming along to the range and brought his lead sled with. What a dream to to take those last couple shots knowing I was checking the scope and not me. Don't get me wrong, I like shooting it, but sighting in a 45-70 carbine on a bench isn't much fun.
Toprudder
Member
I use the Solo version of that (includes a strap, which I never use). It is not the most steady rest, but is adequate for what I do which is mainly sighting in rifles and testing load workups. Definitely takes the recoil off the shoulder, even without a weighted bag in the tray. If I were shooting a 45/70, I would add some weight to the tray.
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