Finding accuracy

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kestak

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Greetings,

I was talking with an old timer and he explained to me his methodology to find the best load for his rifle. He said it never let him dow. Frankly, it cut so many steps from what I am doing (and many other do) that I wonder if it is not one of those old wives tales:

1-prepare your cases as usual.
2-using the most likely powder, primer and bullet load a few rounds of different coal and shoot them. Keep the coal with the best group.
3-load with different powders and keep the powder of the best group.
4- load with different primers and keep the primer of the best group.

If you change bullet, repeat the steps.

As you see, it removes a lot of permutations. When I asked him about that, he told me in all his years of experience, almost all the time it was what gave him the best result.

Whatcha think? Worth to try?
 
Sure seems like a lot of components to try and find to try out. Kind of tough in a component anemic world we live in.

I have had great success just finding one or two powders I want to try. Load those all at the same OAL and go from min to max in .3gr increments for rifle. Once I find my best charge, then I tweak the OAL. Hasn't let me down yet.
 
kestak,

There are so many variables there that you would go thru a lot of components and time doing it that way. As jwrowland77 suggested, limit yourself to the components most likely to get you where you want to be. Establish a cartridge OAL that puts you a proper distance off the lands for your particular rifle and then play with powder charges in .3gr increments as jwrowland77 suggested, making sure that you are in the velocity window where you want to be. Not much sense in finding an accurate load that is hundreds of fps slower than what is needed. Hope that helps.

Don
 
When you find it, let me know!

I tune the powder first and always at published col. usually at .5gr until I get close to a node. Then play with col from slightly under pub col until I'm in the lands.

To me, flat based and light for caliber bullets are more accurate out less than 300yds. And usually powder on the faster end of the spectrum is more accurate in this situation.
 
These days I use an undersized neck and I don't have much patience for bullets that can't handle being seated by the lands. Powder speed and powder charge are the two variables that I tend to focus on.
 
I agree with J77, seems rather cumbersome, and actually, quite the contrary to being a simplified process. I'm sure it works, but at what expense?

I pick a bullet and a powder or two, start working up my powder charge at the closest oal, then tweak the powder charge and oal as needed. This has almost always worked well for me, but there is most definitely more than one way to obtain accuracy.

GS
 
Also I would strongly recommend a thorough barrel cleaning between groups to avoid misleading data when working up a load! The value of this step was impressed upon me recently when breaking in a new barrel. Very important step!
 
spitballer said:
These days I use an undersized neck ....
Click to expand...
Am I to assume from this that you have a very tight / competition chamber? What is the logic behind the undersize neck?

....and I don't have much patience for bullets that can't handle being seated by the lands ........
Click to expand...
All bullets can be seated on the lands (providing they are sufficiently long) but ensure that your powder charge is sufficiently low to avoid excessive pressure. Do not underestimate the dramatic rise in pressure as you approach the lands and then meet them.

...... Powder speed and powder charge are the two variables that I tend to focus on.
Click to expand...
As we all do.

I have noticed from your posts that you are a real keen learner and experiment a lot. I would like to point out that many of the techniques published these days are for long range shooters, on or off the bench where small changes make a difference at 900yds. As hunters we tend to adopt these techniques over skill in our quest for accuracy.

If you are a hunter then many of the techniques are simply not appropriate for 100 - 200 yard shooting and can in fact be counter productive. For example if you have a hunting rifle with a normal chamber then turning the necks down would make them even looser in your chamber. If you have a tight competition chamber different story.

If you have a hunting rifle you would want to seat shorter rather than longer as when you cycle the bolt you do not need a jam on your follow up shot. A hunting rifle should not be seated into the lands.

If your purpose is not hunting then ignore my comments.

Finally I know of very few average shooters that can resolve the differences in minor load changes differences at 100 - 200yds. In my experience, and coaching others, the best improvement in accuracy is not to be gained in the loading but the shooting. I have seen great shots wring the neck out of standard factory ammo and get clover leafs and I have seen poor shots with great hand loads get 2" at 100yds.
 
Andrew Leigh said:
Am I to assume from this that you have a very tight / competition chamber? What is the logic behind the undersize neck?


All bullets can be seated on the lands (providing they are sufficiently long) but ensure that your powder charge is sufficiently low to avoid excessive pressure. Do not underestimate the dramatic rise in pressure as you approach the lands and then meet them.


As we all do.

I have noticed from your posts that you are a real keen learner and experiment a lot. I would like to point out that many of the techniques published these days are for long range shooters, on or off the bench where small changes make a difference at 900yds. As hunters we tend to adopt these techniques over skill in our quest for accuracy.

If you are a hunter then many of the techniques are simply not appropriate for 100 - 200 yard shooting and can in fact be counter productive. For example if you have a hunting rifle with a normal chamber then turning the necks down would make them even looser in your chamber. If you have a tight competition chamber different story.

If you have a hunting rifle you would want to seat shorter rather than longer as when you cycle the bolt you do not need a jam on your follow up shot. A hunting rifle should not be seated into the lands.

If your purpose is not hunting then ignore my comments.

Finally I know of very few average shooters that can resolve the differences in minor load changes differences at 100 - 200yds. In my experience, and coaching others, the best improvement in accuracy is not to be gained in the loading but the shooting. I have seen great shots wring the neck out of standard factory ammo and get clover leafs and I have seen poor shots with great hand loads get 2" at 100yds.
Click to expand...
I am attracted to the challenge of reloading for accuracy and not for hunting; I'm not big on hunting these days although I would consider a feral hog hunt with the understanding that it would be conshumed afterward.

I use a lot of "big words" sometimes and I hope this doesn't intimidate newer contributors. "Obturation" was a word that I used once that drew a real crowd, and surprisingly, none of them had ever heard of it.

If I use big words it's because it's efficient and I simply don't have time to think of something that's simpler or more humorous. But I am not too proud to take advice if it's good advice and I will try not to be intimidating in the future.
 
spitballer,

we are more interested in the information you convey. you don't intimidate us (me, anyway).

if people have a problem with a "big" word, they can always consult mr. webster.

obturation is a very misunderstood word.

we'll get over it!

murf
 
Thanks. Constant back pain has taken away much of my humor, and it's probably fair to say that I come across as insensitive sometimes but it is NEVER intentional.
 
Sounds like the old timer was forgetting a lot. Fiddling with the OAL is done after you have a group, not before. And that removes no permutations at all.
 
Old timers can be a lot of help,especially the ones who can use old school techniques and modern day information.When I loaded my first round in 79,there was no internet.It took me several years to compile the knowledge that today I can gather in a couple of hours online.I like to choose a couple of likely powders that are compatible with the preferred bullet and go from there.Usually one powder will work better than another.Then I might play around with a couple of bullets until I find the best load.Then I usually start working on OAL,primers and anything else that can be changed in hopes of improvement.It all depends on what you're wanting the gun to do.A deer rifle will have different ammo/accuracy requirements than an F class target rifle,and the load development process is different.And each individual is different in how they go about working up a load.
 
No, that's right. I was asked a legitimate question because it appeared that I was suggesting that an undersized neck had something inherently to do with seating on the rifling, and it doesn't. I mainly got the undersized neck because I'm tired of having to fool with work-hardened brass. But it also helps to reduce wasted pressure blowing by the projectile, as does seating on the lands, therefore I lumped them together in the sentence. I understand why someone would want to seat off the lands to reduce a pressure spike, but to me it still means pressure that could be used to power the projectile. Inefficiency. You know how us huns hate inefficiency.
 
spitballer,

There are reasons to load into the lands or not, as well as to have "undersized" necks or not, totally aside from "efficiency" or "pressure spike" related. First, normal bottleneck ammo should be loaded with necks that have an inside diameter of .0015" to .002" below bullet diameter. This is normally what is produced when an expander ball passes thru a neck. If you are loading for a semi-auto rifle, or a rifle using a tubular magazine, or a cartridge suitable for African game, then you can make the case for more neck tension. Less neck tension can be useful for producing accurate loads for target shooting, but should only be used in rifles that you intend to single load for due to possible bullet movement in the case of cartridges loaded in a magazine. If you are worried about work-hardened necks, then you really should be using bushing dies, where the amount of neck tension related to work-hardening can be compensated for by using a different size bushing. As for loading into the lands, this is only recommended for target shooting and is typically used in conjunction with low neck tension. Again, it should be done only when single loading, and care must be taken when extracting a live round so that you don't spill powder in your magazine when the bullet sticks in the lands and is pulled out of the case neck. Also, you should drop back 1 full grain from a load where the bullet is off the lands to one that is in the lands. Hope that helps.

Don
 
I don't know if it is me or that cannot understand what you say or if it is you than cannot articulate what you want to say.

spitballer said:
I mainly got the undersized neck because I'm tired of having to fool with work-hardened brass.
Click to expand...
If the OD of the neck is undersized then the neck will expand more and hence work harden more. What am I missing? Every firing work hardens the brass.

But it also helps to reduce wasted pressure blowing by the projectile, as does seating on the lands, therefore I lumped them together in the sentence.
Click to expand...
Almost instantaneously the shoulder expands to the chamber shoulder creating a seal. Blowback is minimal and only occurs when there is insufficient pressure to maintain the seal on the shoulder, only then do a very small percentage of the gasses escape. Peak pressure is achieved in roughly 0.0005 seconds, how much gas do you think will be wasted in this instant in time?

I understand why someone would want to seat off the lands to reduce a pressure spike, but to me it still means pressure that could be used to power the projectile.
Click to expand...
Seating on the lands requires that you reduce the load to compensate for the pressure spike created by the effect of inertia. You can't have it both ways, in any event who claimed that the fastest (most pressure) projectile is the most accurate?

QuickLOAD as a guide recommends that one adds 7 200psi to the Start Initialisation Pressure to compensate for seating on the lands. Assuming that one is at SAAMI max pressure then one needs to reduce the load in order to maintain the SAAMI safe limit.
 
I'll normally avoid neck sizing more than one or two thousandths at a time, and going from .255" to .246" is a chore. That's the main reason for my taking advantage of the option to run an undersized neck. Whether seating on the lands is more consistent is open to debate, but it seems to me that if guys are running longer necked cartridges to avoid the erosion caused by turbulence then turbulence might be an important issue to consider when deciding where to seat the bullet.
 
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