Firearm idea - dazzling laser

[Lucky]

I was thinking if it would be intelligent to mount a dazzling laser the same way people mount flashlights, to a firearm? This way you would still get illumination, but if you point your firearm at anyone it will dazzle them and they won't be able to look straight at you (and hence aim a weapon) for a while after.

I've looked into it and to actually damage an eye you need a high energy loading per area with a time element, so a wide-beam laser would have to be stared at for a long time to damage anything.

I think all you'd need would be a laser with an adjustable lens, like a Maglite, and you're good to go.

P.S.

On something close range it could even be a target indicator.

 

[Thain]

If I'm covering someone with the muzzle of my gun, I intend to shoot to stop the threat by the most effectivemeans possible. That means putting a bullet into them... repeatedly.

I don't want to "dazzle," I want to "decease." If I can't get them to back down by drawing my gun, I'm going to shoot them. Let the LEO's worry about compliance, capturing bad guys, and the like.

So, to sum up, I think this is a bad idea.

 

[BSlacker]

Light entering the eye does not have to emit from a laser to "dazzle". Bright light from a flashlight will blind a person for a few seconds just about as good as a laser. Lasers are power hogs at the power/density level needed to "dazzle". Flashlights are more reasonable in power comsumption although they eat batteries when set on dazzle as well. Prisons use green lasers to help control inmates but the things are large and unwieldy. I think it is just not needed. Flashlights are readily available and work great at a good price point and have other uses.
I work on eyeball lasers. You are correct about the density/power. The laser power to dazzle at the density needed to cover the eye pupil easily long enough to keep them dazzled is large the battery will out weight the gun. Pointing a small beam for targeting and keeping a large beam on the open eye pupil are two different task.
Won't work well in daylight with person wearing dark glasses. So its just effective at night at the end of a long AC cord. This would be easy to defeat. Armed blinded BG closes eyes and starts blasting the last known bright spot which is you. Nope no lasers needed a cheap light weight flashlight does the same thing.

 

[M2 Carbine]

and they won't be able to look straight at you (and hence aim a weapon) for a while after.

Have you tried to look into a (gun mounted) light like a Streamlight TLR-2?
You'll be dazzled. You can see nothing but that light.

Personally I use lasers or laser/lights on my guns.


Besides I doubt that a laser as bright as you're talking about could be sold to civilians.

 

[M2 Carbine]

And as a side note a person does not have to see at all to be a real danger to you.

At the very close distances that most defense shootings take place, a (experienced) shooter can possibly hit you many times (unless you get him first).

I experimented shooting with my eyes closed, at the very close distance of 7 yards and the results were a little suprising as I only totally missed the BG three times. (the numbers are the first and second magazine)

 

[AirPower]

It would take some intensity to really dazzle someone. Also consider the amount of time it takes to aim the fine point laser onto target, not to mention target eyes, you may not have much time at all. If you could do this, you can take a head shot.

Not to mention if the perp was somehow blinded or injured by laser, he can sue you over using the laser. Not that he won't sue if hit by a bullet, but the average Joe will be much more understanding if you were frightened and then fired a gun, than feeling threatened and shined a laser into someone's eyes.

 

[Lucky]

Ah, good points all around.

 

[ArmyCop119]

There has been some testing done of a near-UV dazzling laser that makes the fluid in the assailant's eyes flouresce. the only thing the BG can see is a bright green light.

As far as I know, it's completely eyesafe, but I doubt that it will be released to civilians. Something about being able to blind someone completely-with no 'down side'- and the potential for misuse.

I know I'd hate it if I was on the highway, driving along at 55 or so, and some college chuckleheads decided it would be funny if I was blind right now.

I wouldn't hold your breath for a group buy.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I think a lot of you are missing the idea the OP was making. He's not just talking about shining a targeting laser, or a bright light. There is actually a specific type of Laser, dubbed "Dazzler" that specifically causes the human brain to lose its ability to process input. It make the subject feel extremely nauseous, not be able to stand up, and certainly not be able to take aim at you. Shining the Dazzler laser into ones eyes immediately incapacitates them. I repeat, this is NOT just a bright light. This is a Laser tuned to a specific wavelength that interrupts brain activity. It is also not a fine point for like our red targeting lasers. It's actually a wide beam that can encompass and entire individual from a few yards away. No fine aiming is necessary.


AS for the idea of mounting them to guns, it's actually already being done in Iraq. The(and I'm not making this name up) PD/G-105 XADS Photonic Disruptor is issued to certain soldiers in Iraq. It can be attached to an M-4 and is used to disorient drivers failing to yield at checkpoints.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler_(weapon)

http://www.xtremeads.com/

 

[Cesiumsponge]

That's not a super secret laser according to the specs. Its a diode pumped solid state laser w/ 532nm output (green) which suggest a frequency doubled KTP crystal is used on a 1064nm IR output frequency.

A FDA class IIIb 105mW output is very hazardous to the eyes, especially since 532nm is near the peak optical response of the human eye. Class IIIa items like laser pointers have a 5mW maximum output and aren't supposed to be stared at. This is over 20 times as high.

The frequency is exactly the same as the green laser pointers you can get, only more powerful.

 

[Lucky]

Thanks Taurus, I thought I was alone out there. Yea, it's not an alternative to a gun, it's a little something to give you an edge, and it would light things up in the dark, too.

Cesium, the thing with power levels is that their effect on eyeballs doesn't need just watts, but needs to be watts//square inches/minutes. If you've got a wide cone, like a flashlight, then the power per square inch is lesser.

The original article I read about suggested SWAT would use them (flashlight size) if they stormed an airplane, so everyone they'd point them at would get blinded (temporarily). The effect, aiui, was that if you looked in their direction all you saw was green. And if you look away, you still see a big green afterimage.

I'm sure the wavelength was specially chosen, but I don't remember the article giving any details about it.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

The wavelength is mentioned in several articles, as well as several different manufactuers' websites. 532nm is an industry standard in laser optics for years and has been ever since the advent of using KTP frequency doubling crystals on infrared Nd:YAG pulsed lasers decades ago. Its been used on military rangefinders for a while (sans KTP) It's nothing new, only the fact DPSS has become increasingly compact, cheaper, and more rugged. It is also reasonably close to the peak receptive wavelength of our eyes. If you had several different wavelength lasers side-by-side, the green one appears much more luminous.

If power is signifigantly less than several of the units listed, you could probably experiment on your own by purchasing regular non-FDA regulated green laser modules and use a diverging lens to expand the coherent beam and experiment in the comfort of your own home and get results on a lesser scale. You can buy plenty of more powerful FDA-regulated lasers secondhand or through various channels on the Internet itself as well, and just as easily.

However I find the point of a diverging cone pointless because it only works "best" at one specific distance. Any closer and it won't cover the target completely and increases in power density, risking damage. Too far, and it has too much coverage and drops in power density. You can fix this by using a collimating lens to expand the beam diameter at the focus without much divergence, but something like that would be large and clunky. Also do not forget, an eye is a converging lens that gathers light and narrows it down to the retina.

There are plenty of commercial and military cases where temporary and permanent eye damage was sustained from anything varying from laser pointers to commercial and military devices. I'm not specifically opposed or for it, but matter of factly, if used on civilians as crowd control, you will get lawsuits. Look at all the incidents with "less lethal" ammunition.

 

[Lucky]

I was actually just thinking about tossing the lens from a maglite on a laser pointer and seeing what happens. That's the collimating lens, right?

 

[Cesiumsponge]

Collimating gathers light into a parallel beam. I believe they are also under the same group of lenses to expand a given laser profile to a larger one (ie 1/16" dot to 1") while keeping the beam relatively parallel in size given distance.

Flashlight reflectors are parabolic or semi-parabolic metal or metalized plastic and don't actually have any optical components to it other than a lexan protective shield on it. The reflectors just reflect light from the bulb towards whatever you point it at. You would need to cannibalize a camera lens, eye loupe, or something with "optical stuff" in it really.

 

[Lucky]

All right, thanks. I was hoping for a cone, though, but I guess a wide cylinder wouldn't bee too bad. But my gut tells me the cylinder width is going to be determined by the lens width.