Firearms in science fiction novels...

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Ummmm...

Billll wrote...

My favorite was an ordinary 1911 that figured in a gunfight on the moon. The good guy, whose gun it was, stood on a ridge, some 100 yds away from the baddie, and let him empty the magazine at him. Figuring, correctly, that someone who had never fired a pistol before would be a terrible shot, he then engaged the villan in arguement for a few minutes.
Orbital velocity on the moon is 1100 FPS. Muzzle velo for the 1911 is also 1100 FPS. Aiming at the horizon will get you 1 orbit from the bullets. Yup. Shot himself in the back.
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Hate to tinkle in your space suit but...

I've always had the impression that what launced the bullet was the burning of the gun powder. No atmosphere to speak of, certainly not one with enough oxygen to breathe, on the moon. You pull the trigger on a 1911 and I'm figuring you'll either feel the click through your space suit glove/hand and nothing more.

The fulminate of mercury in the primer would have no oxygen to bind with. The gun powder would have no oxygen to bind with. No oxygen no fire. No fire no explosion. No explosion no bullet lanched.

Add to that the temperature we are dealing with. If they are in full sunlight the gun would already be baked to several hundred degrees on any scale you name. If not in full sunlight the gun would be so cold the barrel would shatter before the bullet could be expelled (assuming you provided the oxygen to burn the powder).

Add in that the bullet's velocity is the velocity measured in... AIR. In a vacuum the velocity would be MUCH higher with no resistance other than that of gravity to impact the projectile. Remember the first lunar landing and the golf ball? Lower gravity and no atmosphere and that clumsy hit soared better than anything Tiger Woods can pray for.

Don't feel bad. A LOT of rather interesting stories bear little relation to actual physics although some elements flat out offend my sensibilities.

For example: In L. Ron Hubbard's "Battlefield Earth". The heros find some well preserved Thompson submachine guns (and the author makes a point of saying this) WITHOUT a compensator on the muzzle.

Well, those brave earthmen figure out that if they turn the gun sideways that nasty muzzle jump will help them strafe side to side instead of giving them muzzle climb!

SAY WHAT?

I'm not the brightest bulb in the flash cube but even I could see how silly that was, even if I was stupid enough to buy the book at the grocery store.

Since then I've always recalled that portion of the book anytime Scientology is mentioned. If the jerk couldn't understand bullet physics and firearms I'll be dam*ed (literally?) if I let him try to sell me a religion.
 
You may or may not have read the Jurrasic Park novel.(I have and I loved it.)If you did,you would know that the Professional Hunter-who is called Robert Muldoon-is a professional game hunter from the UK who had been working in Africa,prior to being recruited by John Hammond to work in his newly-created Jurrasic Park Island-on the Costa Rican island of Isla Nublar.

Anyway in the novel version, Muldoon has access to a weapon far more powerful than his SPAS-12 Shotgun and his holstered-pistol-that was shown in the movie version.This weapon is either a bazooka,a rocket-launcher or a grenade-launcher and was ordered to be custom-made for his use in Jurrasic Park, to despatch dangerous dinosaurs with, if ever there was a disaster like the one that occurred later on in both the novel and movie.

He takes INGEN lawyer Donald Gennaro(that guy who is eaten on the toilet-in the movie.) for a ride in a gasoline-powered jeep, to find Dennis Nedry-and when they find Nedry's jeep, they find his bloated corpse next to the jeep.So Muldoon opens the back door and removes the piece of metal-tubing and it's ammunition and proceeds with Gennaro back to their jeep-and they start heading back-I think-to either the Raptors pen or the visitors centre.Muldoon kills a few raptors with the launcher, but unfortunately he hands the ammo to Gennaro- who acted as his loader-but Gennaro craps his pants and runs away leaving old Muldoon with an empty launcher at the mercey of few angry, very much-alive raptors.

I don't understand why Speilberg did'nt give Muldoons character a rocket or grenade-launcher, in addition to his Spas12 shotgun-in the movie version.Muldoon wasn't supposed to die,Hammond was.
 
Gunpowder, both smokeless and black, is self-oxidizing. It requires no air, which is in short supply inside cartridges.
Primers haven't used mercury fulminate in decades - the current chemical of choice is lead styphnate, which is also self-oxidizing.
The Russians had a 23mm autocannon on one of their space stations. I presume they wouldn't have bothered if it wouldn't have worked.

As for the hot/cold gun issue, in the absence of air and therefore convection, it will take longer for the gun to heat up or cool down, since only through radiation can it gain or lose heat.
 
Sterling 180 wrote...

I don't understand why Speilberg did'nt give Muldoons character a rocket or grenade-launcher, in addition to his Spas12 shotgun-in the movie version.Muldoon wasn't supposed to die,Hammond was.
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Can you say "Hollywood Anti-gun, anti-hunter agenda?"
 
I've always had the impression that what launced the bullet was the burning of the gun powder.
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True

No atmosphere to speak of, certainly not one with enough oxygen to breathe, on the moon. You pull the trigger on a 1911 and I'm figuring you'll either feel the click through your space suit glove/hand and nothing more.
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I believe you have figured wrong on this one. The gunpowder provides it's own oxidizer. Otherwise you would not be able to fire a gun underwater (SAFETY NOTE, Do not attempt this unless the manufacturer of your firearm has ok'd it. The only one I know of (there may be others) is Glock for their 9mm handguns using a special part with FMJ ONLY) if you do a search this subject has come up before on THR.

Add to that the temperature we are dealing with. If they are in full sunlight the gun would already be baked to several hundred degrees on any scale you name. If not in full sunlight the gun would be so cold the barrel would shatter before the bullet could be expelled
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The points about temperature may be valid I do not know enough to say.

NukemJim
 
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Lots of sf-nal guns.

Spider Robinson had a throwaway line in one of his novels, about a terrorist using a commercially available disposable gun -- I picture a very simple magazine fed autoloader with ammo preloaded in a sealed magazine. Probably full auto (Sten simple).

El Neil loves personal weapons with a passion, and they show up in all of his novels. They range from real (Win Bear's S&W .41) to fanciful (his wife's Webley Electic, shooting .11 steel needles via EM induction), to unlikely (Sedrich Fireclaw's handmade, personally invented black powder cartridge revolver.).

RAH had one of his characters pack a "Skoda fletchette pistol" in her purse in Number of the Beast.

"Gunz won't fire in space."
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Sounds like a job for Mythbusters. :)
 
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Also mercury fulminate is one of those explosive compounds that
breaks down producing heat and gas all by its lonesome.

Black gunpowder is the compound potassium nitrate KNO3 plus
charcoal carbon C and sulphur S. The O3 in KNO3 is three atoms of
oxygen, which "burn" the carbon and sulphur, even under water,
even in a vacuum. Even in a hole in solid rock as blasting powder.
Even in a gun barrel surrounded by steel and plugged at one end by
brass and the other end by lead.

Now, in the TV series Firefly, the character Jayne had a rifle Vera,
that apparently used oxygen from the atmo to burn the fuel in
the cartridge, but that's sci-fi. Since three-fourths of gunpowder
is oxidizer, a cartridge that could draw oxygen from the air could
pack a 50 BMG punch in 45 ACP package.
 
Most of the alien races in the upcoming sequel to my novel carry "energy weapons," and I intentionally left the specifics out because I didn't feel like trying to come up with something that kept with the science part of the fiction.

However, a few guys do carry projectile weapons that I went into in some detail:

“That’s reassuring,” said Richter. “Say, what kind of pistol is this?”
“It’s a Res-ZorCon ‘Legionnaire.’ It’s the last of the enhanced projectile pistols. They stopped making them in favor of the new plasma burst weapons about twenty years ago.”
“Is it obsolete?”
“It’s obsolescent. It’ll still put a one centimeter hole in you at a hundred meters. I carry it because some of the new bad guys out there are dumb enough to wear armor that is weak against physical projectiles. Energy dispersal armor isn’t exactly well suited against them, no pun intended.”
“No wonder those Rakhar mercs went down so easily.”
“I take it your weapons use combustible chemical propellants?”
“Yeah. And yours?”
“Mine does too, but there are also four microscopic superconductive magnets embedded in each bullet. There are particle accelerator rails instead of rifling within the barrel. They impart a spin on the round as well as boost the speed by a factor of three.”
“Muzzle velocity?”
“Fifteen hundred meters per second.”
“Holy ****.”
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Later, the character describing her pistol also introduces her friends to a couple of the carbine variants, which are full-auto and have higher magazine capacities.
 
My wondering about the effects of vacuum was not if the primer/gunpowder would burn. I wonder if a cartridge loaded at normal air preesure wouldn't push the bullet or primer out, when exposed to vacuum.
I remember reading a short story years ago ,where a man in a suit tucked a bottle of booze under his arm,cycled thru the air- lock and kablooey.
ideas? jim
 
Okay, I may be wrong on the points of oxidant contained within the powder and the primer compound. Chemistry isn't my major area of expertise.

I don't feel that my points about the temperature extremes is invalid, nor the different physics of a bullet fired in a vacuum vs. fired under earth atmosphere.

Putting that aside right now the person firing the bullet, assuming the bullet launched at approximately the orbital velocity of the moon would still be very unlikely to shoot himself in the back.

The moon is not perfectly flat. It has ridges around the craters and other surface features. Assuming he person firing it was standing on the highest point on the moon it is somewhat remotely possible but I sure as hell wouldn't bet my life or money on it happening. Shells vary in their velocities. A little too much, a little too little and the bullet either escapes orbit or plows to the surface short of the guy who fired it. He would also pretty much have to stand still, not moving off his spot or the odds of the bullet hitting him would be (pardon the expression) astronomical.
 
lneilsmith.org now
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Fixed.

I knew that, just fumbled typing it in. Some snafu with the hosting was behind the change, is my understanding.

BTW, if you're a fan of his work, you might want to check out "Roswell, Texas" at Big Head Press. He's got some hints of that version of Texas in the novel American Zone. As you might expect, it's full of tough hombres and hombre-ettes packing heat (heat appropriate to an alternate history 1945, where LiberTexas was never a part of the USoA). An analog of Win Bear's dad is (so far) the major character.
 
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now maybe I am wrong, but my thermos to keep my coffee hot or uses a vaccumm between the laters. No air particles to colide with the surface, leach heat, then leave. Same way fast wind makes things cool faster, more air particles colide with whatever, each leaches some heat and is gone, quickly replaced by another.

Seems to me in space your stuff would be very well insulated, except for the stuff in contact with the surface of the moon, spaceship, or what have you. Sure, space is not a total vaaccumm there is some stuff bopping around, plus there is a small loss due to radient energy, but your gun is going to stay pretty much the same temp all the time. Hell, overheating from fast firing may be a bigger problem.

Regarding overheating in 'direct' sunlight. My understanding is that the earth is the temp it is becasue our atmosphere creates a greenhouse effect. Planets with their own atmosphere, like venus, get hot as hell. (or if you are a LOT closer to the sun) however, in most circumstances, the sun won't be causing any problems.
 
This is obscure from the Imperium series by Keith Laumer. It was an ultimate stopper concealed weapon. A smooth half egg like gadet worn on your wrist and under your sleeve. It shot a short range hi pressure blob of some liquid or gas that would knock you over and cause lots of impact damage.
 
Lunar surface temps:
Maximum surface temperature, 123°C. Minimum surface temperature, -233°C. (lol, ninja'd by Knocker)

I would be a lot more worried about overchilling than overheating. Some sort of thermal control would definitely be a good idea, though, at the very least a climate-controlled holster—short vacuum soak to fire followed by re-holstering isn't going to allow enough of a temperature differential to be a hazard.

I would be much more worried about its lubricants outgassing.
 
The maximum ground temp on Earth can get hot enough to fry eggs. It's not really proper to compare our AIR temp with the Moon's GROUND temp.
 
My favorites:
Mike Resnick's Leprechaun gun from "Stalking the Unicorn".

F. Paul Wilson's Ibizan Combustion Double Barrel Autoshotgun, firing number-eight end-over-end cylindrical shot, from "Healer".

Dean Ing's 30mm rocket launcher disguised to look like a camera, and a commando handgun that includes a trigger that cuts the finger off an unauthorized user, from "Systemic Shock" and "Wild Country".

Possibly the best of all: Timothy Zahn's COBRA guerrilla soldiers. Cyborgs with unbreakable bones, super-human speed and strength, and a complete weapons suite ranging from finger-tip lasers, to an anti-armor laser in one leg, to sonic weapons and enhanced vision and hearing.
From "COBRA".
The big question: How do you send a soldier home to civilian life with enough non-removable weapons to out-gun a company and a computer implanted in his brain that can open fire on it's own if IT feels threatened.
 
Phantom Warrior said:
In David Weber's Honor Harrington series you see pulsers (3mm darts fired at a couple thousand feet per second)
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It's more like a couple thousand meters per second, driven by artificial gravity technology. Military pulsers may use explosive darts. There are also flechette guns which are basically uber-shotguns that drive bunches-o'-projectiles with artificial gravity.

The Strike Force soldiers in David Drake's Redliners used "stingers" that fired 15-grain pellets at 10,000 fps.

Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series has "nerve disruptors". Their beams very painfully destroy nerve tissue. Grazes usually result in permanent deadening of sensory nerves. Solid hits usually result in permanent paralysis of that area. Brain or spine hits are almost always fatal. They are highly restricted or illegal dang near everywhere.

I can't remember the title, but years ago I read a back-cover blurb about some sort of time-based weapon that retroactively destroyed things. If you destroyed something with it, it would also remove all history of that object's existence.
 
+1 for Steve Perry; also check out The Trinity Vector, which features a S&W M66 and a Coonan 1911-type .357Mag(yes, that's right!) semi-auto, The Digital Effect, which features a future-tech stun-dart-firing Taurus air pistol and a vintage Thompson sub-gun, and the Stellar Ranger books, which feature a "Smith & Wesson CGLS, old when his grandfather owned it. The stainless-steel semiauto used a magazine powered by a double cylinder of highly compressed and esoteric gasses, a special enzyme added to keep them from liquefying. The projectiles were teflex-coated lead starfish bullets. When one of the bullets hit something the consistency of tissue or harder, they expanded from 9mm to 15mm in the shape of a starfish, even at the modest 300 meters/second subsonic velocities at which they flew. The magazine held only six shots before he had to reload."

Another +1 for L. Neil Smith - see Henry Martyn, which mentions such vintage weapons as "steyraugs," "remwins," "arpeegies," "smith-wessons," "Effen Effayals," and a Walther .22LR PP; and Pallas, which features a .45 Win Mag LAR Grizzly and the "Ngu Departure" 10mm semiauto pistol. Actually, ALL of L. Neil's books feature guns prominently, with the possible exception of his three Star Wars/Lando Calrissian novels.

Yet another +1 for Timothy Zahn's Cobra series - not especially flashy or action-packed, especially compared to the likes of Drake or Ringo, but very well thought-out.

Since I haven't seen them mentioned yet, here's a shout out for Michael Z. Williamson's Freehold and The Weapon;

And finally, A.E. Van Vogt's classic The Weapon Makers and The Weapon Shops of Isher("The right to buy weapons is the right to be free"), featuring the "Weapon Shop Special," an energy gun capable of destroying any material object within its range, which also shields its user from energy weapons up to a "small atomic cannon" - but which is unable to be used to commit aggression or murder. I've sometimes thought that if I were to open my own gun store, I'd like to call it "Isher Guns" just for the heck of it.
 
Personally, I'd like to see someone not listen to Reason.

You know, the Gatling type 3mm Hypervelocity Railgun System from Snowcrash.
 
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