DKSuddeth
Member
Does anyone know where to find good information on what it takes to manufacture firearms, on a high inventory scale?
Firearms manufacturing
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Owen
Moderator Emeritus
What do you consider high volume?
DKSuddeth
Member
well, considering starting a factory to mass produce
Jeff Timm
Member
You might check out the Kel-Tec factory tour, if you can get in one. They are the latest successful Mfg start up.
Geoff
Who would consider a Kel-tec.
Geoff
Who would consider a Kel-tec.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
It really depends on the gun you want to build, how fast you want to build them, and how many parts you are willing to buy rather than purchase.
Figure on 2 to 3 million dollars of assorted equipment (Metal cutting, heat treating,finishing), 10k to 30k sf of light industrial zoned buildings, a half dozen manufacturing engineers, 3 or 4 machine maitenance guys to keep all of it running, and a hellacious problem finding employees at all.
Oh yeah, a customer base to keep the cash flowing, and a gun to build
Most of the newer gun companies (kel-tec, Kahr) started as contract manufacturers, and started making guns.
Figure on 2 to 3 million dollars of assorted equipment (Metal cutting, heat treating,finishing), 10k to 30k sf of light industrial zoned buildings, a half dozen manufacturing engineers, 3 or 4 machine maitenance guys to keep all of it running, and a hellacious problem finding employees at all.
Oh yeah, a customer base to keep the cash flowing, and a gun to build
Most of the newer gun companies (kel-tec, Kahr) started as contract manufacturers, and started making guns.
Sunray
Member
"...10k to 30k sq ft of light industrial zoned buildings..." That'd cost. Don't forget the assorted permits and licences at all levels of government, legal fees for getting patent rights, an office staff, having enough cash for payroll, paying suppliers(most of whom require COD for new customers), environmental issues, alarm system, etc, etc.
"...2 to 3 million dollars of assorted equipment..." That sounds light to me.
"...2 to 3 million dollars of assorted equipment..." That sounds light to me.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
I was thinking that would get you about 15 - 20 vertical mills/basic lathes. Last I checked a decent v-mill was in the $95k range. That would leave him nearly a million for other process equipment like polishing machines, heat treating furnaces, bead and shot blasters, and surface treating tanks.
An FMS system would be more time and labor efficient because of non-existant change-over times, but if the guy fails, it's going to be a lot easier to liquidate than a 15 million dollar cluster, that sort of all goes together.
In the end production is all about spindles. You can't make one spindle on a fancy h-mill as fast as three v-mills, despite the huge improvement in efficiency. You'll have a little more scrap on the v-mills, because of loading errors and such, but in the end, an end mill or drill can only cut so fast, and the only way around that is to add more spindles.
An FMS system would be more time and labor efficient because of non-existant change-over times, but if the guy fails, it's going to be a lot easier to liquidate than a 15 million dollar cluster, that sort of all goes together.
In the end production is all about spindles. You can't make one spindle on a fancy h-mill as fast as three v-mills, despite the huge improvement in efficiency. You'll have a little more scrap on the v-mills, because of loading errors and such, but in the end, an end mill or drill can only cut so fast, and the only way around that is to add more spindles.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
I could get a lot more specific if I knew what he wanted to build, and what sort of volume he considered "mass production."
DKSuddeth
Member
I'm in texas, finding employees shouldn't be too hard.Owen said:
I'd like to build handguns first. Get a line started by maybe making 200-300 in different calibers. Depending on what sells best I could focus on a particular size at that point. I'd try to save some machining expense by making a type with the barrels easily interchangable.
'mass production' would probably be a future aspect, one that would be dependent on how well they sell.
If things are profitable enough, then I would go in to long guns, maybe even a defense contract or two.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
I think you will surprised by the difficulty of finding qualified employees for any manufacturing position. The positions I've had to hire for recently, I found out very quickly that there is a reason that most technical people are unemployed, and it has little to do with the job market.
Knucklehead2
Member
DK
You may want to purchase Winchester. Good name to start off with.
Just a thought.
You may want to purchase Winchester. Good name to start off with.
Just a thought.
DKSuddeth
Member
I wish I had that kind of capital.
Knucklehead2
Member
I do not
believe they have been purchased as of today. They are closing the doors at the end of the month. May be a good deal.
believe they have been purchased as of today. They are closing the doors at the end of the month. May be a good deal.
Third_Rail
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Good luck finding employees - machinists are at basically an all-time low. Good thing people like myself are going into the field, yes?
Helstrm
Member
The hardest part of this will be making a gun that will sell. When you start nobody will know the name. Then you have to either provide a very low cost weapon or a very high quality weapon at a good price, Many names have been around since dirt so chances are you will be losing money for a while waiting for your brand to catch on. On the high end you will have to compete with Les, Ed, Wilson ect.. Then Kimber, Para, SA All of which have made a name for themselves and most are trusted brands. You may want to break in with a low end 9mm and .45 and compete with Armscor or even lower and give highpoint a run but with both of these you will need to put out high volume to make anything over operating costs. Either way you need to have enough capital to lose money for the first couple of years.
Jeff Timm
Member
Name brand recognition keeps bringing old name back from the Corporate Dead, Hi-Standard seems to be in the midst of resurrection.
However, the numbers of businesses that started well and then went under is long. Now if there was a war on and massive numbers of weapons were needed, that would be different. But now days we just buy foreign, not having an industrial base. Sigh.
Geoff
Who fears for the Republic. :banghead:
However, the numbers of businesses that started well and then went under is long. Now if there was a war on and massive numbers of weapons were needed, that would be different. But now days we just buy foreign, not having an industrial base. Sigh.
Geoff
Who fears for the Republic. :banghead:
thegodmanson
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Finding Employees isn't really all that hard. The hard part is finding employees that are Qualified, have No criminal record, and are really willing to work. I work for Nosler. I see probably 3 people come and pick up or fill out apps every day. they give a basic math test and a visual basic test before they even think of hiring you. The if they decide they want you to part of the team the will do a Criminal background check and a Piss test. I really think the last 2 are really the hardest part for most people.
For production work I believe we have some of the better benefits I have seen in this area. hell for any labor job around here. But you still get those who come in and find out its not just a sporting goods party inside and we really work. which weeds some out. and then before you can become a full employee you have to take a Bullet ID test in which you are given a Micrometer and a scale and have to ID 30 different bullets from our lines which weeds out a few more.
To sum up I really don't think finding people is that hard........ Finding qualified people you can Trust to do the work is the hardest part.
For production work I believe we have some of the better benefits I have seen in this area. hell for any labor job around here. But you still get those who come in and find out its not just a sporting goods party inside and we really work. which weeds some out. and then before you can become a full employee you have to take a Bullet ID test in which you are given a Micrometer and a scale and have to ID 30 different bullets from our lines which weeds out a few more.
To sum up I really don't think finding people is that hard........ Finding qualified people you can Trust to do the work is the hardest part.
Third_Rail
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Finding qualified machinists is hard. There are about 8 machining jobs to every certified machinist in the country.
Almost anyone that can breathe can be taught to run a machine. The setup, however...
And don't even get me started on the shortages in CNC programmers/setup. Plenty of people volunteering to put the part in the machine and press the start button, though... I wonder why?
Almost anyone that can breathe can be taught to run a machine. The setup, however...
And don't even get me started on the shortages in CNC programmers/setup. Plenty of people volunteering to put the part in the machine and press the start button, though... I wonder why?
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
Of course, it's the corporations fault for moving offshore. It has nothing to do with a culture that insists you have to to college to have a good life, a society that looks down on those "dirty manufacturing" jobs, and so on and so forth. My guidance counselors in HS actively turned kids away from the trades.
My mom actually cried when I took my BSME and went to work in a job shop.
Well, she cried when I came home from work that first day, filthy. (turns out initiation for the new college boys was to chip the cast iron sludge out of the coolant tank on a blanchard grinder)
My mom actually cried when I took my BSME and went to work in a job shop.
Well, she cried when I came home from work that first day, filthy. (turns out initiation for the new college boys was to chip the cast iron sludge out of the coolant tank on a blanchard grinder)
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
yeah, there were running soluble oil, and it was rancid as al heck.
Oddly, I never really noticed the stench after that job.
Oddly, I never really noticed the stench after that job.
Third_Rail
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Gee, why not? I'm just glad that we switched to trimsol.... smells a lot better.
There was one guy that thought he'd get the slag out of the grinder tank with a putty knife. Poor guy.
There was one guy that thought he'd get the slag out of the grinder tank with a putty knife. Poor guy.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
I recall using a 2 pound hammer and a cold chisel.
It was a huge machine. 128 inch table, IIRC. I basically had the machine locked out, and I was sitting in the tank. Every now and then I would wash away everything I had broken loose with the coolant hose.
It was a huge machine. 128 inch table, IIRC. I basically had the machine locked out, and I was sitting in the tank. Every now and then I would wash away everything I had broken loose with the coolant hose.
grendelbane
Member
I use a very slightly modified variation of the method that Colt uses.
I purchase all of the parts from outside vendors. Then, when the weather is pretty, I sit on the deck with my favorite beverage, and assemble those parts into quality Gov't model type pistols and AR15 type rifles.
This is a low volume operation. To increase volume, I would have to purchase more parts, more beverages, and move to an area of the country with better weather.
I purchase all of the parts from outside vendors. Then, when the weather is pretty, I sit on the deck with my favorite beverage, and assemble those parts into quality Gov't model type pistols and AR15 type rifles.
This is a low volume operation. To increase volume, I would have to purchase more parts, more beverages, and move to an area of the country with better weather.
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