Firearms Purchase Held Up Due To ATF Inquiry

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Adam123

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A few months ago, I bought a couple of WASR UFs. I quite liked them both. Then, I decided to buy a couple of Polish UFs. The Polish UFs were held up due to, what my FFL holder told me, was because the BATF wanted to know why I was buying "so many AKs". I probably purchased all of these within a 3-4 month period of time. My second purchase was withheld for about a week (which really annoyed me as my FFL wouldn't give me a straight answer as to what the hold up was during that time) while , I am assuming, the BATF decided whether or not I should be allowed 2 more AKs. The main reason I made the purchases was because I have been wanting them for a long time and am sick of sitting back while prices keep going up, and up.... and up.

This now has me a bit worried and, to be honest, I've been a bit uneasy and a little stressed over the whole thing. I would like to buy some ammo because it is only getting more and more expensive as well, and I'm seriously concerned that purchasing ammo will raise another "red flag". I am a law-abiding citizen. The only law that I break is the occasional speeding. I think it's safe to say that 80+% of the population occasionally drive faster than the speed limit. So, why on earth is the BATF looking into and holding up my purchases? Is this something that is normal procedure for the BATF when such purchases are being made? Should I be concerned over this? Do any of you guys have similar experiences with similar purchases?

Lastly, I decided to post this in this section rather than the "Legal" section because I figure that the guys in here probably buy a fair amount of firearms. If a moderator thinks this thread would be better suited in another section, feel free to move it to that section. Thanks.
 
It's funny that the ATF would know this... they aren't allowed to keep records like this.

NICS records must be destoyed within 48 hours by law.

Maybe it's the dealer shifting blame? Maybe he suspects you of straw purchases and is using the "ATF" excuse to sell you another gun... it 's part of the training they get.
 
Ammo doesn't go through the background checks, so no red flags there.
 
Lots of unknowns about the actuality of how NICS is handled, vs. what we understand to be the requirements under the law.

Mostly guessing and speculating: Although the AWB is over and done with, the NICS system may keep a record such purchases for some period of time. It would be easy enough for multiple purchases or sequential purchases in a short period of time to be computer-flagged from NICS to BATFE. Is this done? I don't know.

If something along this line is being done, and if it's indeed against the law, I'd then guess that there would be no relief with this present administration in control.

If somebody has expertise about how this could happen in a legal manner, please post.

But save the rants and bashing for PMs and Emails...
 
I thought that if they couldn't approve your back ground check or tell you Why it was denied they had to let you have the gun after 5 days.

It might help to state which part of the country you're in. Apparantly the only people getting easy approvals for "assault guns" in the southwest are mexican drug runners
 
My second purchase was withheld for about a week (which really annoyed me as my FFL wouldn't give me a straight answer as to what the hold up was during that time) while , I am assuming, the BATF decided whether or not I should be allowed 2 more AKs.
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NICS doesn't go through ATF.
 
Kludge, I am not sure how that tactic would apply to the gun shop in this scenario. I don't buy from local shops due to high prices. I always order from the internet and just use them for the transfer - and if I were buying from them, that story would only make me want to buy less... would certainly backfire as a sales technique.

ISC, I'm from Pennsylvania.

Gordon, I am not sure that I understand.

SharpDressed, I currently have buying privileges. I am sure that I could buy just about anything that I wish right now. That's not my point. My point is that the gun shop gave me the run-around for a week, after my rifles arrived (had the tracking #s). They kept giving me these idiotic excuses that never added up. When I finally got the call that they "found" them, I was pretty ticked off and wanted to know what caused the hold-up. When I was leaving, a couple of employees told me that it was held up because of the ATF's inquiry. I don't know 100% that the ATF was actually looking onto the purchases, but that is what I was told. I can't imagine anyone making up something so ridiculous, especially after I did the transfer and was happily on my way out the door.
 
Art,

All NICS gets is handgun, long gun, other, or both. They don't get quantities, nor serial numbers, nor even make & model of gun. NICS is administered by the FBI, not BATFE.
I thought that if they couldn't approve your back ground check or tell you Why it was denied they had to let you have the gun after 5 days.
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The dealer may transfer, at his discretion, if state law does not prohibit, on the fourth business day if the check is still delayed. Some dealers have had delayed checks come back denied a week or more later, and therefor choose to wait until they get a proceed from NICS. The dealer will not be told why a check is denied because of the privacy act of 1974. You have to call the FBI yourself, and appeal the denial.
 
The ATF have been obtaining and retaining records of such sales especially in border states for some years now.
They have even shown up at the homes of some individuals requesting to see the firearms in question to insure they are still there and nothing illegal was done with them.

Clearly a database of registration would violate FOPA. How are they getting around FOPA restrictions? Perhaps calling such information part of an ongoing investigation, allowing them to retain and build it up during their multi-year nearly permanent investigations?

One thing is known though, they are keeping tabs on people that purchase AR and AK style rifles, especially multiple. The reason for the interest in these firearms is said to be the use of such firearms in Mexico by the bad guys, and some of these firearms being from the US.
Which is what the ATF are investigating, for years.
 
The BATF occasionally audits dealers 4473's to insure compliance. I had a situation occur where I purchased about 20 guns during a three month period and the agent noticed my name on multiple 4473's. He asked my dealer who I was. When the dealer informed him that I was an avid shooter and collector, that satisfied the agent's curiosity. I was told about the situation by my dealer who seemed to get a laugh out of the situation...

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with your situation but it happened in Pennsylvania as well.
 
You don't live in the South, they don't bother us about a couple of old rifles. As far as that goes they don't bother us at all about firearms, it's our legal right to own and protect our families and friends. Us your vote next time to your advantage.
 
To Adam123,
This has, to me, a strong whiff of LGS "uh oh." Shipment came in, as you saw by tracking number. But, was in among several other items. If these were all paid for (not COD), and it was near the end of the day, the pile of boxes were set in the back--"They'll sort'em out tomorry." You call the bossfella, he does not see new boxes--you insist they have been delivered, he cobbles up story about how [agency] is to blame.
Later on, someone stubs a toe on the pile of boxes, and then, after the cussing dies down, sorts them out. You get a call that the product is available, and you collect.

Over here, near the border, dealers were told to expect to start recording, illegally, multiple long-arm sales. Which may be stopped, or not--still waiting for that other shoe. Which is part and parcel of two ongoing "investigations" one named "Project Gunrunner" the other, "Fast and Furious." Neither of which worked at all. And may have made (AT)FE a before-the-fact participant in the shooting deaths of two Border Patrol Agents.

So, there is quite a lot of "stirred up" on this issue to go around.

Which is also why location was asked of you, as it is somewhat germane. Unless the Zetas have been rabbleing about the borders of Wllm Penn's Sylvan state. (And, from the example of what is going on in Juárez, you do not want that happening.)
 
"why on earth is the BATF looking into and holding up my purchases?"

They could be investigating the importer/paper work/tax status, etc. and consider the guns potential evidence. Who knows, it's the government.
 
I am by no means well educated on the NCIS process. I can tell you that I was once denied the right to purchase a firearm due to some unknown reason. Six months later I was placed on "hold" for 3 hours(?) the FFL said he had never experienced a short hold in his time of owning a gun shop. This same event occurred 3 or 4 times and I got used to the process. I even called ATF, NCIS, to try to find out what was going on and I never received an answer (although, the folks I talked with were really pretty nice). However, when taking out a mortgage to buy a house my lender called and asked if I had ever lived in Nevada (which I hadn't), after a lengthy dialog the banker stated "well, someone with your name did some really BAD things there". Interestingly, since moving into my new home (7 years ago) I've had ZERO issues with holds. In fact, I called ATF, identified myself and asked if there were any limits to the number of long-guns or hand-guns that I could purchase at a single time - the response was "no, no limits".

Blessings

Paul
 
As mentioned, the ATF isn't involved in the instant check. This smells bad on the part of your seller. Maybe he is worried that he is being sucked in to fast and furious and is covering his arse.

I'm wondering if yours came in but he diverted yours to another buyer that waved cash in front of him and was waiting for another order to come in.

Clutch
 
This smells, but not so much on the ATF side. Wonder what would happen if you just went to another dealer somewhere else and made a purchase of a gun on hand. But your background check would go through in 10 minutes like they're supposed to.
 
The BATF occasionally audits dealers 4473's to insure compliance. I had a situation occur where I purchased about 20 guns during a three month period and the agent noticed my name on multiple 4473's. He asked my dealer who I was. When the dealer informed him that I was an avid shooter and collector, that satisfied the agent's curiosity. I was told about the situation by my dealer who seemed to get a laugh out of the situation...
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This would be my guess also. I had this very thing happen back in the 90's, with multiple purchases of bolt action FR8's, of all things. They were doing an audit at the shop, and like RickMD, my name came up on a number of purchases in a short period of time, and the very same questions and result occurred.


As far as whats "legal", Im sure somewhere in one of the Patriot or various other Acts theres an app for that. :)
 
I'm going to throw in my opinion as well that the DEALER has some mystery dumbness he's passing off as an ATF issue. Dollars-to-donuts, he screwed something up, or he's having whatever issues (maybe even with the ATF, concerning his business) and he doesn't feel like sharing that info with you.

A) The ATF doesn't get the NICS call anyway.
B) The ATF doesn't approve or disapprove sales of guns to individuals.
C) The 4473 transfer form doesn't go beyond the dealer's filing cabinet unless there is some investigation or audit of the dealer.

In other words, he's lying to you.
 
The problem could be the dealer. If he has been involved in some questionable sales, BATFE might be looking at all his transactions. Of late, BATFE has been checking distributors for multiple sales on C&R licenses and also for more than normal (whatever that means) sales of some weapons to some dealers.

The evasiveness of the dealer tends to make me think he has a problem that he doesn't want to discuss with a customer. So the buyer could be the innocent victim of something he has no control over.

All that being said, I think I might reconsider the multiple purchase of some kinds of firearms right now.

Jim
 
FFL's in Pennsylvania do not call NICS, they call PICS (the state system). That system contacts NICS and searches the PA state databases. I do not know what data PICS retains, if any.

The FBI NICS does not track the make/model of firearm you purchase. The only info they get is "Long Gun", "Handgun", or "Other" (e.g stripped receiver).

ATF has neither the budget nor manpower available to investigate everyone who purchases four rifles in a four month period. We've got some "frequent flyers" where if I don't see them for several weeks I call just to make sure they didn't pass away. :D
 
Sam1911 said:
I'm going to throw in my opinion as well that the DEALER has some mystery dumbness he's passing off as an ATF issue. Dollars-to-donuts, he screwed something up, or he's having whatever issues (maybe even with the ATF, concerning his business) and he doesn't feel like sharing that info with you.

A) The ATF doesn't get the NICS call anyway.
B) The ATF doesn't approve or disapprove sales of guns to individuals.
C) The 4473 transfer form doesn't go beyond the dealer's filing cabinet unless there is some investigation or audit of the dealer.

In other words, he's lying to you.
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What he said......
 
If the dealer doesn't get a denial within three days, he is free to sell you the gun. Lack of approval within that time period is the same as approval.

Find another gun dealer.
 
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