Fired for smoking!

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I am a new poster to the site. It is a great one. The few points I would like to make are:

1. Smoking and health problems go hand in hand. Insurance companies can and do ask about pre-existing conditions ie: diabetes, smoking, heart disease etc. because of risk. Most likely your company pays for a good amount of this insurance. The smart company will balance your worth (profitability against your cost).

2. I did not realize I had the right to work at any company I want to, at my terms. I guess I was kidnapped and dragged to my current position without any input or research on my part. Maybe you work graveyard. You sleep during the day. I guess you have the right to tell your neighbor to buy a electric mower or cut his grass from midnite to 8 am.
 
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed

Apparently it's NOT "self-evident" to some.

The Constitution and specifically, the Bill of Rights only applies to FedGov? All official government entities only? Not to citizens or companies or corporations?

Therefore, I can:
1. Prohibit speech, religion, assembly and grievances. Only work-related talk, no symbols of religion, nobody can eat lunch together, and NO complaining; EVEN AT HOME.

2. Infringe on KABA. Walk into my house or business, I can seize your CCW. I can come to your house and seize your whole collection too...

3. Hire soldiers and quarter them in anyone's house. Better feed them or they'll get cranky...

4. Search your stuff, read your mail, even full-cavity searches, any time I or my minions deem appropriate - AT HOME, at work, wherever...

5. Seize stuff. Imprison you. Kill you. See #6 & #7. That'll save on health-care costs.

6. I don't need justification for anything, I don't need to accuse or have evidence.

7. Nobody needs a jury anyway, see #6.

8. see #4 & #5

9 & 10. It doesn't apply 'cause I'm not government.


I don't need to be your employer, because APPARENTLY the Bill of Rights only applies to the Government. :what:

I guess I can keep slaves, deny civil rights and prohibit anyone from voting - because I'm not the government? :uhoh:
 
I have never been fired. Layed off yes. I have also quit because of illegal operations but not before finding another job. If employers are allowed to fire anyone without cause, and it sounds like they can. Then why don't they layoff people instead. Firing for no reason to me seems very spitefull. Then they can't figure out why some deranged person walks into his place of employment and opens fire.
 
Camp David said:
Allowing employers to discriminately outlaw every unique characteristic or habit of their employees sets a dangerous precedent; one in which I content is a slippery slope of restriction leading to outright discrimination in every case.

Can't you also agree that telling an employer that he/she cannot fire someone for off-hours issues creates problems just as severe, if not worse?

Example: Harry likes kiddie porn, and spends many of his off hours surfing the net for kiddie porn. Harry is employed by Company X, where he is a valued and very skilled employee. When Harry gets caught in an FBI sting, and is convicted, can Company X fire him? I mean, it is totally unlrelated to his work. He's on probation, and missed no work time, using vacation days for his court appearances. Basically, unless there is some morals clause in his employment terms, there is no "for cause" reason to terminate his employment.

Example: Dave is a salesman at Company Y. He's busted in the same sting as Harry. Is also a valued employee, and a slaes leader. However, the community around Company Y has learned of his arrest, and his continued employment, and stage lawful protests outside the building. Business lags as a result of the protests, with people not wanting to do business with a known pedophile. Now can they fire him? It would still be for reasns totally unrelated to his work.

Example: Forget the kiddie porn. Local television station is doing a series on a sex club downtown. While filming the story, they get video of Dave coming out of the club. Business lags, as customers don't want to do business with a "pervert." Can you fire him now? It's still not work related.

Example: Company hires Susan to work at their office in downtown Columbus, Ohio. However, Susan is a Michigan grad, and several Ohio State alums threaten to pull their business rather than deal with a Michigan grad. How about now? Do they have to keep Susan, even if the loss of the business will shut them down? Do they have to go bankrupt, and cost all employees their jobs, or can they stay in business by getting rid of Susan?

Can you see where this is going? Forcing emplotyers to keep employees despite "off-hours" and "non-job related" issues is a dangerous trend.

With all that said,allow me to say that I find it personally disturbing to see things like health screening before employment, DNA testing employee for potential health issues, etc. I, too, am concerned about future health screening being used as a weapon, rather than a useful tool. Why take on the expense of Timmy since we know he's a 90% risk of developing Syndrome X accoding to his genetic mapping? Hire Stan, who is only a 10% risk. Timmy can sweep floors for the city, despite having a PhD in Computer Engineering.

And, Cellar Dweller, it is true that the Bill of Rights restricts government actions. An employer comes to your home without permission and takes your guns, it's called Aggravated Burglary.
 
Cellar Dweller, that is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read. Talk about Reductio Ad Absurdum.



Scott
 
I did not realize I had the right to work at any company I want to, at my terms.
Close. You have the right to contract with anybody you want, for any terms you find mutually agreeable.

Cellar:
See previous about contract. If you're stupid enough to agree to those terms, you deserve what you get. Me? I'd turn around and walk out when those terms were disclosed, probably with an string of invective that would peel the paint off of a battleship.

Yes, the US Constitution applies only to fed.gov (though the 14th Amendment incorporates some of those provisions to the states). State constitutions apply to states (funny how that works). Contracts govern your relationship with employers. And if you try to put some of those provisions in a contract with me, then you're right, you don't need to be my employer.
 
PCGS65 said:
I have never been fired. Layed off yes. I have also quit because of illegal operations but not before finding another job. If employers are allowed to fire anyone without cause, and it sounds like they can. Then why don't they layoff people instead. Firing for no reason to me seems very spitefull. Then they can't figure out why some deranged person walks into his place of employment and opens fire.

The reason, as you might suspect, comes down to money. If I fire someone, I don't have to pay unemployment for that individual. If I lay someone off, then I do. That's a bit simplified as there are a number of specific exceptions, clauses, etc, but as a general rule that's the way it works (at least in Minnesota).
 
Therefore, I can:
1. Prohibit speech, religion, assembly and grievances. Only work-related talk, no symbols of religion, nobody can eat lunch together, and NO complaining; EVEN AT HOME.
Well, yeah, you can. And you will very shortly shut your doors because you will have no emloyees.

Infringe on KABA. Walk into my house or business, I can seize your CCW. I can come to your house and seize your whole collection too...
Theft was not at issue. You could, if you were so stupid, tell me that my employment was contingent on my turning over my guns to you, upon which I would tell you what you could do with your job position.
Hire soldiers and quarter them in anyone's house. Better feed them or they'll get cranky...

4. Search your stuff, read your mail, even full-cavity searches, any time I or my minions deem appropriate - AT HOME, at work, wherever...

5. Seize stuff. Imprison you. Kill you. See #6 & #7. That'll save on health-care costs.

6. I don't need justification for anything, I don't need to accuse or have evidence.

7. Nobody needs a jury anyway, see #6.

8. see #4 & #5

9 & 10. It doesn't apply 'cause I'm not government.
Now you're just being silly.

Look, no-one said the employer has a right to DO anything at all, except decide who he does and does not want to employ.
 
I don't need to be your employer, because APPARENTLY the Bill of Rights only applies to the Government.
As long as you don't understand the constitution, any freedom from it comes to you as a gift from and at the pleasure of others.
 
CRAP! I knew as soon as I stated I was a public school teacher I would get picked a part for my spelling or lack there off, so I double checked to make sure I spelled everything write. For some dum reason I missed tenure and put tenor. Or was it a mistake? I think it was funner when it might have looked like I did that on purpus.

At least I didn't go back and edit it to be correct and then deneigh everything.
__________________

You might consider sitting in on spelling class with the kids

:neener:
 
First, welcome to the forum.

calvinike said:
1. Smoking and health problems go hand in hand. Insurance companies can and do ask about pre-existing conditions ie: diabetes, smoking, heart disease etc. because of risk. Most likely your company pays for a good amount of this insurance. The smart company will balance your worth (profitability against your cost).

Agreed. What I don't think has been stated enough though, is that while employers have the right* to fire you at any time, for any reason, at the same time you have an even more powerfull right to quit. You may sign a contract altering the terms, but that's the way of it. Libertarians and most Conservatives believe that it's your right to do something stupid(as long as it doesn't directly hurt somebody else).

A company screwing around too much with it's employees is going to find out that:
A: Their turnover rate is going to be HUGE. $$$ in retraining and recruiting
B: They can't get enough labor. $$$ in temp workers & overtime, or $$$$$ in lost contracts.
C: Selecting from a subset of otherwise qualified potential employees** will either result in labor shortages or a need to pay a premium

The employer has to ask himself and the beancounters to find out if it's worth it.

2. I did not realize I had the right to work at any company I want to, at my terms. I guess I was kidnapped and dragged to my current position without any input or research on my part. Maybe you work graveyard. You sleep during the day. I guess you have the right to tell your neighbor to buy a electric mower or cut his grass from midnite to 8 am.

Well, more exactly you have the right to negotiate with your neighbors as far as lawn mowing goes. The only problem is that you're probably the minority. You might have to subsidize the purchase of an electric for him. Simply convincing him to mow before it gets hot(and before you're going to bed) can help. Just examples. You could also use some of the obscene amounts of money you're making working night shift(You're being paid more to do it, right?) to soundproof your bedroom better, or even move to a quieter neighborhood, such as one with 4 acre+ lots, so that the neighbor's busy mowing with a muffled riding lawnmower, far enough away that you can't hear it. :D

*some states limit this more than others
**such as the police department that was only hiring non-smokers. They couldn't get enough new police officers.
 
Pre-employment screening is much more efficient and cost effective.

Of course this is right, and I would make every effort to do that very thing.

My position is that smokers don't realize how bad they smell. When I'm on the Interstate doing more than posted speeds on my motorcycle, I can smell the car in front of me if the driver lights up. If +70 MPH wind won't dissipate burning tobacco, imagine how clothing drenched in the stuff smells.

Some of my smoking clients come in and stand a counter width away from me. Man, my eyes burn.

I just don't want my paying customers to endure that behavior--and take their cash someplace else. About 75% of the population is non-smoking. I have a business to run.
 
I'll type slower so you can keep up

Inalienable rights: cannot be infringed by government or companies or individuals. Are not granted by governments or companies or individuals. Are supposed to be protected by the government from infringement by government or companies or individuals.

Constitution: defines the limits on Federal power; if something is specifically protected by the Federal government it cannot be infringed by states or localities or companies or individuals.

Bill of Rights: specifies certain rights that are supposed to be protected by the Federal Government; was necessary to ensure passage of the Constitution and therefore inseperable.

Incorporation of an Amendment: binds the states to the Constitution, should be irrelevant for inalienable rights, should NOT be necessary.

Employment At-Will: if only a few states do not participate, why do those states have labor boards and labor law and labor courts and arbitration and how are employers in those states forced to pay for unemployment insurance? Perhaps because it is "employment at-will," not "employment at-whim?" How can anyone ever get a settlement or win a case against an employer - ex. "I was fired for being a whistleblower" "No, he wasn't, employment at-will, employer wins, ha ha" - why does a company need to prove anything when the burden of proof is on the former employee?
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The 2nd Amendment is NOT incorporated, and only FedGov is supposedly bound. In states that don't have specific KABA language, guns could be banned entirely. In states that have KABA in their constitutions AND home-rule provisions, a locality could ban guns entirely. Continuing this path, there is no justification for fighting gun infringements - after all, there is "housing at-will."
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I haven't addressed smoking vs. non-smoking at all; there is a right to smoke AND a right to smoke-free air. Smoke-free on company grounds and vehicles, OK. Higher premiums for smokers, OK. Not hiring smokers, shaky (see below). Hiring smokers then telling them they must quit (which is what this is all about) to continue their employment is not OK.

According to some, an employer can infringe on my personal time for smoking because it is not Federally protected. If you allow that, you also allow for other things not Federally protected: if my spouse or roommates can smoke, what church I must belong to, what ethnicity my spouse must be, how many children I can have, where I can shop, where I must deposit my savings - and if I don't like it, I should look elsewhere? *** are you thinking?
 
...and I will use small words so you can keep up.

Cellar Dweller said:
...
According to some, an employer can infringe on my personal time for smoking because it is not Federally protected. If you allow that, you also allow for other things not Federally protected: if my spouse or roommates can smoke, what church I must belong to, what ethnicity my spouse must be, how many children I can have, where I can shop, where I must deposit my savings - and if I don't like it, I should look elsewhere? *** are you thinking?

That is exactly right. It is a free society, and if two parties do not agree on a specific item (smoking, for example), one party should not have the power to overrule another . If you want to smoke, we will not stop you. If we want to terminate your employment because you smoke, you cannot prevent us from doing so.

You are not "more equal" than your employer, and your rights do not take priority over theirs.
 
Not Right

I live in Michigan and they did fire people for smoking at home.
I have only read the first two pages and can't take it any longer without adding my 2 cents worth. Everyone knows that smoking is BAD and BAD should be punished. I can't believe the double standards here. If they had gotten fired for Playing Golf, Driving a Motorcycle, or owing Guns, than I think more people would be upset here. Some of these people had 20+ years of service with the company, mortgages to pay, kids to put thru school. Now we the tax payers can pay for it. I hope that when you get fired for something that has little or nothing to do with your job performance, just because your employer decided he doesn’t like it, that you remember that it is OK, and that you agreed with the boss the last time they fired someone for personal reasons. This is just plan wrong. No different than the gun grabbers, I don’t like guns, so you don’t need to own them.
Sorry for offending you all.
 
Keep on defending the thuggery guys. Keep on at it.


You might not smoke, or might not want to pack heat at work...but eventually, they will come for something about you they don't approve of. Give it time.


"....soon there after, there was no one left to speak for me"
 
cowboy said:
I live in Michigan and they did fire people for smoking at home...

How did they determine you were smoking at home? They install cameras?

My work for my company ends at 5:00 pm when I walk out the door and begins again the next morning at 08:00 am. What I do at home neither concerns nor is any business of my employer.
 
Camp David said:
How did they determine you were smoking at home? They install cameras?

My work for my company ends at 5:00 pm when I walk out the door and begins again the next morning at 08:00 am. What I do at home neither concerns nor is any business of my employer.


Yes, but what some people are defending is no different than being fired for smoking at home. How the determination is made is irrelevant to the argument, it is the policy at hand that is tyrannical to say the least.


I am consistant though. If you want to fire based on gun-ownership, CWP, smoking, et al....then let's make it work across the board - let's fire Catholics, Muslims and Jews. After all, religion is a choice, not a "disposition" dictated by birth....
 
How did they determine you were smoking at home? They install cameras?
Mandatory blood tests. Refuse "voluntary" consent, and you're fired.

Hiring smokers then telling them they must quit (which is what this is all about) to continue their employment is not OK.
Nailed it. Someone doesn't want to hire smokers? Fine. But don't hire a smoker and then tell him later that you don't want him to smoke at home, and if he doesn't suddenly let you run his private life then he's fired. Once the employee invests his LIFE in your company, such ultimatums begin to look a whole lot like extortion.
 
I didn't want this to be about smoking...

but about "odious but legal and not immoral personal habits off company time"

ChiefPilot said:
That is exactly right. It is a free society, and if two parties do not agree on a specific item (smoking, for example), one party should not have the power to overrule another . If you want to smoke, we will not stop you. If we want to terminate your employment because you smoke, you cannot prevent us from doing so.

You are not "more equal" than your employer, and your rights do not take priority over theirs.

Why do employees have a "right to a smoke-free workplace" if the owner approves of smoking, such as bars and bowling alleys and restaurants?

Why do patrons have a "right" to a no-smoking zone or no-smoking establishments? Aren't they free to go somewhere else? Since non-smoking establishments were NOT created by the free market in any significant quantity, did you support government intervention here, but MYODB in your place of business?

As an owner, can I require my employees to smoke at work? At home?
Can I make it a condition that they can't complain or petition for grievances about smoking on their off time?
 
Can't you also agree that telling an employer that he/she cannot fire someone for off-hours issues creates problems just as severe, if not worse?

Example: Harry likes kiddie porn, and spends many of his off hours surfing the net for kiddie porn. Harry is employed by Company X, where he is a valued and very skilled employee. When Harry gets caught in an FBI sting, and is convicted, can Company X fire him? I mean, it is totally unlrelated to his work. He's on probation, and missed no work time, using vacation days for his court appearances. Basically, unless there is some morals clause in his employment terms, there is no "for cause" reason to terminate his employment

If he is a politician or policeman he will be sent home with pay pending the outcome of the trial.
 
Master Blaster said:
If you are a large well known employer, and you become known for dictating what folks can do in their private life, if they work for you, How many of the best qualified people do you think you will attract?

Today it may just be smoking but what else will they require of you in the future?

I would not even consider working for these folks or doing business with them if I was looking to hire a contractor to provide the service they sell.

So this will affect their business,


BUT THATS THEIR RIGHT

Blaster nailed it. Companies can and will do what they want (within their legal rights) and talented people will either choose to work for them or not. Customers will choose to buy from them or not.

A local business owner (bicycle shop) was an avowed, borderline commie liberal. He only employed people that shared his political views, had left-leaning propoganda posted all over his shop, and gave mounds of money to the most left-wing candidates he could find. I wouldn't want to work for the guy, or buy from the guy. Apparently, many hard working, right-leaning people felt the same way and he went out of business.


As an owner, can I require my employees to smoke at work? At home?
Can I make it a condition that they can't complain or petition for grievances about smoking on their off time?
Yes you can. Good luck getting people to work for you though.
 
The reason, as you might suspect, comes down to money. If I fire someone, I don't have to pay unemployment for that individual. If I lay someone off, then I do. That's a bit simplified as there are a number of specific exceptions, clauses, etc, but as a general rule that's the way it works (at least in Minnesota).

Your so right. It's always money. That's why cigaretts aren't against the law. They want the tax revenue generated from them.
 
Many of you guys are appealing to the "free market" argument that you can just go work elsewhere.

That doesn't work, since there is no where to go to escape from this type of discrimination. Why? Because the government protects that very discrimination. There isn't a level playing field is there?


Free-markets only work when there is a fair playing field, not when government tips the scales.


(note: I happen to be for totally unregulated free-market economics, that means fire/hire for any reason) too bad the govenrment protects people from b eing fired for some issues, but not others.
 
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