Firefighters With Guns And Badges

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gunsmith

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all of you guys who only post links, this is the way you do it!

http://www.firefightingnews.com/article-US.cfm?articleID=24616

Fire Investigators Are Firefighters With Guns And Badges
January 20, 2007

California - Firefighter or police officer. Many people looking for an exciting career choose one or the other. Rick Moore and several others at local fire departments are doing both. They're fire cops the nickname for fire investigators.

They are firefighters with guns and badges -- people who, after years of knocking down fires and getting covered in soot, trade in their fire gear for a plainclothes job that's closer to that of a police detective. But instead of investigating robberies and homicides, they go after those who set fires in the name of anger, desperation or pleasure.

"I get the best of both worlds," says Moore, a fire investigator with the Fresno County Fire Department. "I get to be a firefighter and I get to be a cop."

Moore has been a fire investigator for 12 years. He carries a .40-caliber gun on his hip, handcuffs on his belt and knows how to fight a wildfire and write a search warrant.

Moore, a sworn police officer, went through a police academy program to have the same law enforcement power as a police officer or sheriff's deputy.

Fire investigator is a position, Moore says, that the general public knows very little about. People think of firefighters only as men with helmets and hoses who save babies from burning buildings, he said.

"They do not understand what we do," Moore says.

At fire scenes, people often don't believe Moore has the power to arrest or cite them.

"I've written people tickets and they've said, 'Well, you're a fireman. You can't give me a ticket.'"

Wrong.

That ignorance, Moore says, often gives him a leg up in doing interviews; people spill their guts without knowing who they're talking to.

"It is to our advantage many times," he says, "and it is an absolute total surprise to many, many people."

Sometimes, the element of surprise works against fire investigators. In August, Moore tried to pull over two arson suspects near a fire in the Coalinga area. From an earlier conversation, the suspects knew Moore was a firefighter but apparently didn't know he has police powers.

They refused to pull over for Moore's fire vehicle, sparking a three-mile chase. Once stopped, Moore held the men at gunpoint, ordering them out of their vehicle. They didn't listen to the commands, Moore said, until they heard other sirens on the way.

Don MacAlpine runs the Fresno Fire Department's fire investigation unit. He says he has nearly 700 hours of law enforcement training.

He began working with the unit in 1997 -- a decade after he joined the department.

"I just really needed more," he said. "I wanted more responsibility and challenge."

On his off days, MacAlpine practiced writing fire reports and shadowed investigators until he officially became one of them in 1999. Since then, he has made about 200 arrests.

"It's a whole different mentality. It's a whole different perspective," MacAlpine says of the job change.

Being an investigator, MacAlpine says, goes against the grain of many firefighters' personalities.

"As a general statement, we don't like to distrust anybody," MacAlpine says. "We don't like to have conflict."

Investigators, however, have to take an opposite stance and second-guess everything.

They also need to understand fire and its behavior, such as burn patterns, MacAlpine said: "Fire is living. It needs to breathe. It needs to eat."

A good investigator starts out as a good firefighter, he said.

Even for the best investigators, though, arrests do not come easy.

In 2006, MacAlpine's unit investigated 517 cases -- 251 of which were determined to be arson. In those cases, 37 arrests were made, he said.

In a murder or robbery, he said, suspects often leave a trail of evidence, such as fingerprints or shell casings. But evidence left behind by an arsonist usually goes up in flames, and anything left is damaged by water and other materials used to snuff blazes, MacAlpine said. "There goes a lot of your available trace evidence."

That's why most arson cases are based on circumstantial evidence, witness statements or, ideally, a confession from the suspect.

MacAlpine had one of those cases in 2001. In a nine-month period, 21 fires occurred in a two-square-mile area near Roosevelt High School. About a half-dozen were of neighborhood palm trees. As a result, the 15-week investigation became known as the "Palm Tree" case.

MacAlpine linked the fires to a group of teenage boys with ties to the Bulldogs gang. Through interviews with them, MacAlpine got confessions that led to six convictions.

"It's like working a walnut," MacAlpine said. "As soon as you get a crack, you keep going for it."

The motive in that case was, well, juvenile mischief. But people set fires for other reasons. They do it for revenge. They do it for money (insurance fraud). They do it to cover up a crime.

MacAlpine has seen it all. Jilted lovers setting fire to each other's homes or cars, he said. Business owners, drowning in debt, setting fire to their workplace to try to collect insurance money.

Other arsonists do it because they can't help themselves. They have an unusual attraction to fire.

"Usually there's an excitement about the fire itself," MacAlpine said. "It can be sexual. Some do it for self-glorification. Some do it for a sense of power."

Moore came across an arsonist like that about six years ago.

His name was James Haag, a middle-aged electrician who was renting a room from a family in southeast Fresno.

But Haag was not your average Joe. He was a transvestite going through a sex change who had a compulsion to set fires, Moore said.

Fresno County fire investigators conducted surveillance on Haag for two years, after he became the prime suspect in a series of Sierra wildfires that burned almost 5,000 acres. The undercover work paid off: They actually watched him start a fire, Moore said.

Haag was convicted in August 2002 and sentenced to life in prison.

MacAlpine relishes the feeling of catching an arsonist.

"When it all comes together," MacAlpine said, "it's a feeling that I really can't describe."

Written by The Fresno Bee

Courtesy of © 2007, YellowBrix, Inc.
 
"I've written people tickets and they've said, 'Well, you're a fireman. You can't give me a ticket.'"

Wrong.

That ignorance, Moore says, often gives him a leg up in doing interviews; people spill their guts without knowing who they're talking to.

Isn't he required to Mirandize them?

Not trying to start anything - that just jumped out at me.
 
Miranda only applies:

1. If the person is in custody and

2. If you interrogate them

A LEO pops a guy outside a liquor store for burglary. He cuffs and stuffs the suspect and chucks him in the back of the patrol car. On the way to the jail, the BG admits to committing 10 other crimes without the LEO asking the first question. Perfectly legal, Miranda was not required and the BG singing can be called "spontaneous utterances"

That said, I imagine MOST LEOS will Mirandize someone just to make sure that the case won't get thrown out court.

IMHO
 
Arson investigators are LEO's. Remember that Arson Invesitatoer from Glendale? Source Here. I read a book about this guy. Chasing down criminals with a fire truck. A real loose canon. All the signs were there, but no one picked up on them.

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Published: December 20, 1991
An arson investigator writing a novel about a fireman-turned-firebug was charged with arson in a string of store fires and was named as a suspect in a fire he investigated, a 1990 Glendale fire that consumed 64 homes.

The investigator, Capt. John L. Orr of the Glendale Fire Department, was held on $50,000 bail on five counts of arson and three counts of attempted arson. Mr. Orr, a 17-year veteran of the department, has denied the accusations. The charges carry a maximum penalty of 80 years in prison and $2 million in fines. Arraignment was scheduled for Dec. 23.
 
Please note, that I am not bashing Firefighters or LEO's. I just read the book and found the whole thing very interesting.

Wikipedia fact based sources here.

John Orr
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
John Leonard Orr (born April 26, 1949) is a convicted serial arsonist who was once a fire captain and arson investigator for the Glendale Fire Department in Southern California.

Contents [hide]
1 1984 South Pasadena fire
2 Investigation
3 Trial
4 John Orr in popular culture
5 External links



[edit] 1984 South Pasadena fire
On October 10, 1984, in South Pasadena, California, a major fire broke out at an Ole's Home Center located in a shopping plaza. The store was completely destroyed by the fire, and four people died in the blaze, including a two year old child. Within a matter of days, arson investigators from around southern California converged on the destroyed store, and declared the cause to be an electrical fire. However, John Orr, as an arson investigator, insisted that the cause was arson.

Investigations later showed that the fire started in highly-flammable polyurethane products, which caught fire very quickly, causing the fire to flashover very rapidly. After his arrest in 1991 and subsequent conviction for a series of arson fires not related to the 1984 Ole's fire, Orr was linked to the arson by investigators due to circumstantial evidence and a highly detailed description of a similar fire in his novel Points of Origin that bore several almost perfect similarities with the real-life 1984 fire. Orr has insisted that he is innocent with regards to the 1984 hardware store fire.


[edit] Investigation
Captain Marvin G. Casey of the Bakersfield Fire Department (BFD) had long suspected that an arson investigator from the Los Angeles area was responsible for a series of arsons committed during the month of January 1987 in California's San Joaquin Valley. This particular series of arsons took place about the same time as a three-day seminar in Fresno, California hosted by the California Conference of Arson Investigators, and Orr became the prime suspect for these and other crimes when a fingerprint from a piece of yellow lined notebook paper found at one of the crime scenes in Bakersfield on January 16, 1987 was identified as coming from Orr's left ring finger. (The piece of notebook paper was part of a time-delay incendiary device.) However, it took years for this fingerprint to be identified as one of Orr's, and Orr was initially cleared of suspicion for this particular offense without becoming a serious suspect.

During the month of March 1989, another series of arsons were committed along the California coast in close conjunction with a conference of arson investigators in Pacific Grove, California. By comparing the list of attendees from the Fresno conference with the list of attendees at the Pacific Grove conference, Captain Casey of the BFD was able to create a short list of ten suspects. Orr was on Casey's short list, but all of the people on this short list were cleared of suspicion when their fingerprints were compared with the fingerprint that Casey had recovered from the piece of notebook paper found at one of the arson crime scenes.

On March 29, 1991, Tom Campuzanno of the Los Angeles Arson Task Force circulated a flier at a meeting of the Fire Investigators Regional Strike Team (FIRST), an organization formed by a group of smaller cities in and around Los Angeles County that did not have their own staff of arson investigators. The flier described the modus operandi of a suspected serial arsonist in the Los Angeles area. Scott Baker of the California State Fire Marshal's Office was at that FIRST meeting, and Baker approached Campuzanno privately to tell him about the series of arsons that had been investigated by Captain Casey of the BFD and about Casey's suspicions that the perpetrator was an arson investigator from the Los Angeles area. Consequently, Campuzanno and two of his colleagues later met with Casey, obtained a copy of the fingerprint that Casey had recovered, and shortly thereafter matched it to John Leonard Orr on April 17, 1991.

After Orr became a serious arson suspect, he also became the subject of a massive investigation and surveillance effort that lasted until his arrest on December 4, 1991. Orr was alerted to this surveillance effort on May 3, 1991, when he discovered and removed a tracking device that belonged to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) hidden under the bumper of the vehicle he was driving. However, Orr was apparently unaware of the fact that a Teletrac tracking device was later installed behind his dashboard when he brought his city vehicle for service on November 22, 1991. Meanwhile, a federal grand jury handed down an indictment, and shortly thereafter Orr was present at the scene of a suspicious fire, so a decision was made to end the surveillance, obtain an arrest warrant, and effect an arrest.


[edit] Trial
On July 31, 1992, a jury in a federal court convicted Orr of three counts of arson in a five count indictment, and the judge in that case sentenced Orr to three consecutive terms of ten years in prison. However, Orr maintained and still maintains his innocence, notwithstanding his subsequent guilty plea on March 24, 1993 to three more counts of arson pursuant to a plea bargain agreement for an eight count indictment that probably would have seen him paroled from federal prison in the year 2002.[citation needed] Meanwhile, however, on June 25, 1998, a jury in a California state court convicted Orr of four counts of first-degree murder from the 1984 fire with special circumstances in a twenty-five count indictment, deadlocking on only one of the twenty-five counts, which was subsequently dismissed at the request of the prosecution. When asked to sentence Orr to the death penalty, the same state court jury deadlocked, and the judge in that prosecution sentenced Orr to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Consequently, when Orr has finished his time in federal prison, he will be transferred to a California state prison to serve the remainder of his life sentence.[citation needed]


[edit] John Orr in popular culture
The story of John Orr has been chronicled by bestselling author Joseph Wambaugh in a book entitled Fire Lover, and an HBO film entitled Point of Origin stars Ray Liotta as John Orr, whereas the investigators and prosecutors who sent Orr to prison believe that Orr chronicled his own exploits in a work of purported fiction entitled Points of Origin about a serial arsonist who happens to be a firefighter.
 
Fire investigation is an excellent job. I did it for 15 years of my 25 years in the fire service. We gained our Law enforcement powers from our Sheriffs Dept. Our unit stuck to fire investigations, when fire was involved we worked it.

However we did DUI, and observed assaults etc. this was required although we usually gave the bust to the first responding sector car to let them use their expertise same as they would do with fire.

Fire investigation is a highly specialized field same as homicide and drugs. Each is an intense career.
 
Miranda only applies:

1. If the person is in custody and

2. If you interrogate them

A LEO pops a guy outside a liquor store for burglary. He cuffs and stuffs the suspect and chucks him in the back of the patrol car. On the way to the jail, the BG admits to committing 10 other crimes without the LEO asking the first question. Perfectly legal, Miranda was not required and the BG singing can be called "spontaneous utterances"

That said, I imagine MOST LEOS will Mirandize someone just to make sure that the case won't get thrown out court.

IMHO
He actually mentioned interviews, but he could be talking about asking people what happened at the scene.
 
You don't have to mirandize for an interview, only an interrogation... semantics, I know. But it doesn't hurt to mirandize everyone.

BTW, I'm trying to be a firefighter and an LEO... in North Myrtle Beach, SC, you're both. A public safety officer has to be LEO and fire certified.

And they just sent me a letter stating that my application has made it to the next round of processing and an interview should be scheduled soonly. :D
 
There are a number of incidents and conditions that will trigger Miranda.

However, as an example:

If I walk up to someone on the scene of a violent crime that I do not suspect yet of any wrong doing, I can ask them, "What did you see?" At that point, let's say that the person starts telling me about the crimes that they committed.

What will I do?

I'll shut up and start taking notes. If the person keeps talking, I keep taking notes. As long as I do NOT direct questions to them about a criminal offense where the person is becoming the focus of my investigation, they can talk all they want--and it is admissible.

When is Miranda v. Arizona triggered?

The most important guideline to remember is: when a reasonable person would feel that they are not free to leave.

Miranda is also triggered when a person becomes the focus of an investigation. (NOTE: This is not necessarily during an investigative detention--if all I have is a reasonable suspicion, then I can detain for a reasonable amount of time [15 minutes has been held to be a reasonable amount] to investigate.)

However, once I develop probable cause to believe that a crime will be/is being/has been committed, then the Miranda warning is in order.
 
There's a city in Broward County, FL (Coral Springs) where the police officers are required to become certified Fire Fighters, also. They can work in either post, or both. Most carry air-packs in the trunks of their patrol cars in case there's a large fire call and get called in to help out.
 
In the county just to the west of us (we live about 2 miles from the county line), the sheriff and undersheriff (the only paid LEOs in that county) are also the fire chiefs in the only two incorporated communities in that county. I've worked with both of them quite a bit on wildfires since we do mutual aid back and forth across the county line.
 
Miranda is also triggered when a person becomes the focus of an investigation.

Nooooooooooooooooo. Subject focus of interrogation has NOTHING to do with Miranda.

The test elements are:

(1) CUSTODIAL (meaning full arrest. Not free to leave ISN'T the test because during the various types of brief detentions (Terry stops) the bad guy isn't free to leave.)

(2) INTERROGATION (activity likely to elicit a response)

Those are the rules. Love em or leave em.

So, if the Firecop goes to a place, say the badguy's home, and questions the subject concerning an arson, the defense attorney would have to prove that firecop had the guy in CUSTODY before he could suppress the statements.
 
NYC Fire Marshals are LEO as well & carry a buddy is retiered as a marshall & qualifies for National CCw & does :D
 
Sunnyvale, CA Department of Public Safety in the SF Bay Area - all are both police and fire trained. they pay pretty damn well too!
 
Well it's apparent that the folks here who are debating when Miranda rights advisement is required need to get together with their agencys' legal counsel and get a refresher - assuming those folks are actually cops.

;)
 
Well, one might suggest, we already have tax collectors with guns - why not anyone else?
But instead of investigating robberies and homicides, they go after those who set fires in the name of anger, desperation or pleasure.
Isn't this commonly referred to as arson? A criminal offense investigated by the police and FD; and if or when a suspect is specified or identified one or more peace officers find then question, detain or arrest them as applicable?

Why should someone collecting and analysing physical evidence at the site of a fire that has been put out carry a firearm and be morphed into a quasi peace officer? Why should a technical and scientifically tasked member of a fire department "go after" anyone?

Why should not all doctors wear badges and guns? For those times when they might go after someone who injures "in the name of anger, desperation or pleasure". What about auto insurance engineers for those times when they are going after people that have damaged motor vehicles "in the name of anger, desperation or pleasure"?

---------------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
They have guns because the Bad guys don't care if you are a fireman or not. Fire investigators or Marshals are LAW ENFORCMENT whether you like it or not.

I want to go home at the end of a shift, a firearm may make that possible. Disarm me and you can have someone else investigate the fires as I will not play the game without the tools to keep me alive and safe.

Read my first post, I was a sworn Deputy Sheriff with the Sheriffs Dept no different than any Deputy. That is where MY LEO came from, with that commission from the Sheriff comes the authority for criminal arrests, detentions and all investigation not only fire. Funny but this system works in a lot of States in the country.

Must be just another LEO bash. Some can never be happy.
 
Ive worked with a fire investigator who would follow behind our ambulance and give tickets to those who didnt pull over right away while we had lights and sirens going.:cool:
 
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