First 40S&W handloads - FAIL!

[tydephan]

I'm new to reloading. I understand if you stop reading this postright now.

I've been reloading .223 for a few weeks, and I've been real successful with some light loads.

Until last week, I was unable to find any small pistol primers, which was the only component prohibiting me from loading 40S&W for my M&P.

So, I finally found some primers, and set forth on my adventure to load and fire a few handloads of 40. I set the press (dillon 550) up for 40 and went to town loading 10 rounds for testing.

I dropped each round into my Glock 22 barrel (which I grabbed out of the safe) to make sure they were within specs (my first mistake). When I got to the range, I loaded my M&P40 mag with the rounds and dropped the slide with the mag in and the slide failed to go into battery. The live round was stuck in the barrel. I couldn't pull back on the slide to eject the round either. It was stuck good.

Went back to the house, and was able to carefully remove the live round. That's when I discovered a significant difference in tolerances between the throats of the M&P and Glock barrels. The M&P40 would not accept any cartridge with a diameter more than .428. The Glock 22 was accepting up to .432.

Of course, its a moot point, because I had not set up my die properly in what can only be described as a dumbass oversight. Once it was set right, and began sizing the cases, everything went down to spec (.424-.425).

Yesterday I went back out to the range with 10 handloads and fired each successfully. I have lots of room to work with on powder it seems. The loads were very light. 3.8gr of Titegroup with a 180gr GDHP.

Anyway, I was surprised at the difference in tolerances between the Glock and M&P. The Glock likely has 6-7000 rounds through it, whereas the M&P is still working on its first 1000. Could the Glock have worn that much or is that tolerance difference common? If so, why is the Smith designed with a tighter throat?

 

[rcmodel]

Typical Glock slop.

They have as loose a chamber as any gun made to my knowledge.

It contributes to their legendary / mystical reliability.

rc

 

[jim147]

You learned something and you passed it on.
I would not say you failed.
That is what it's all about.

jim

 

[tydephan]

This is going to sound like a dumb question, but what is the advantage to a tighter throat? I understand that the Glock "slop" helps with reliability, but does a design that is closer to spec increase accuracy?

And thanks Jim. I considered it a fail because it was a pretty dumb mistake. I failed to properly seat the sizing die. But it was definitely a lesson learned!

 

[Chicken-Farmer]

Buy a set of calipers

Buy yourself a set of calipers, a set will run you about $30. Consult a reloading manual and seat the bullets below the max overall length (OAL). I have made the same mistake in the past. I could get the rounds close by using the chamber, but when measured i was always a little short, or a little long. Calipers will save you a lot of headache and are a pretty cheap tool to accomplish the job. Another tool you may look into is a case gauge. It is essentially the same thing as dropping the case into your chamber, but it has exact standard dimensions. Kinda a go/no go gauge. Like a previous poster said, it wasn't a failure, just a learning opportunity.

Chicken-Farmer

 

[rscalzo]

Hey, at least you started and are making a effort to learn. You would not be the first to load a failed round. at least you were smart enough to only load 10 and not hundreds like some I've known.

I keep a case gage for every round I load. Never failed me yet. Calipers for the OAL are indispensable and not that expensive.

 

[jfdavis58]

Speer makes the Gold Dot Hollow Point, naturally one would assume you have (and have read) the Speer Reloading manual. 3.8 gr TiteGroup is OFF the light end---I hope that's the first lesson learned.

The case diagram also shows a mouth dimension of 0.423" (verified in Lyman 49)---Lesson two! The case base dimension is 0.424---40S&W is one of the straightest of the straight walled pistol cartridges---call that lesson 2A.


I'd suggest a better set of calipers or some practice on setting the zero and reading the dial as exercise/lesson 3.

 

[D. Manley]

tydephan...

Although the Gold Dots are some pricey plinking bullets, your load is just fine although it's below most published starting loads. 3.5 grains of TG is one of, if not the most, popular Minor PF loads in .40 caliber under 180 grain plated or jacketed bullets and even 3.2 grains will cycle most guns. I load 3.5 under 180 Rainier FP and 180 Zero JHP in batch sizes I don't even want the wife to know about....

 

[tydephan]

JF,

I have the Lyman and Sierra books, but I don't have the Speer book. Hodgdon's max load for 180gr HP is 4.7. My loads were actually on the brink of 4.0. Most were 3.9. I'll do some more research though. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. Can you tell me what the Sierra book shows as the minimum load for the 180gr Gold Dot hollow point?

I have a good set of digital calipers. See the comments about "dumbassedness" listed above. That's one of the reasons I felt stupid for making the mistake in the first place.

My cases are now consistently being sized per the specs and I have the crimp set to simply straigten the bell. It is perfectly in line with the rest of the case now.

OAL is varying right now from 1.110 to 1.120. That variance seems to be due to case length. Is that an acceptable variance in OAL?

 

[tydephan]

D,

I'm going to go up a little bit on the powder charge. The Gold Dots definitely made for some expensive plinking bullets, but that's what I'm going to carry as well. So I've got to develop some so I'll have some confidence in them. But they did cycle just fine. I'm using Remington 5 1/2 primers and I had one round that failed to fire during the second test session. The primer was struck, but it did not ignite. The primer seemed to be a little too deep.

You mention Zero bullets. I had a guy telling me about those today for the first time. He said they are actually produced down around Cullman, AL, which is not far from where I live. Have you had good results with them and are they reasonably priced? I like to support the home-grown folks when I can.

 

[rfwobbly]

TiteGroup sounds too fast for a 180gr bullet, but I'm not complaining.

I do believe Zero is made in Alabama and I read you can buy FTF from their shop. Otherwise you have to go through their distributors, like Rose Distributing. Both Zero and Precision Delta in Hattiesburg, MS have good prices and great bullets.

 

[Walkalong]

The Zero .40 cal 180 Gr JHP shoots very well, as does the 165 Gr JHP, and would be a cheaper practice bullet.

Roze Distribution or Ghost Holster for Zeros

EGW for a case/loaded round gauge

 

[D. Manley]

You mention Zero bullets. I had a guy telling me about those today for the first time. He said they are actually produced down around Cullman, AL, which is not far from where I live. Have you had good results with them and are they reasonably priced? I like to support the home-grown folks when I can.

They are indeed in Cullman and are top-notch. Their JHP's have become my #1 bullet in most pistol calibers.

The Zero .40 cal 180 Gr JHP shoots very well, as does the 165 Gr JHP, and would be a cheaper practice bullet.

Roze Distribution or Ghost Holster for Zeros

Yep. There are any number of sources for Zeros, problem is finding them in stock. They are used by a lot of commercial re-manufacturers (including, Atlanta Arms' "Team Glock" load) and are constantly in short supply. I picked up the last 4,000 from Dave Zimmerman at TARGET BARN. Best policy is, regardless of where you choose to order, either call or email ahead of time to determine stock status.

 

[Chicken-Farmer]

I would tend to make OAL longer

1.11 is still a little short in my opinion. My manual states that the minimum for OAL is 1.085 and max OAL is 1.135. I have my OAL set at 1.125.

Case length shouldn't have anything to do with variances in OAL, because the dies are still going to seat the bullet to a desired depth. What you will see with longer cases is less of the bullet sticking out the end. In other words the bullet will appear to be seated further into the case. Your observed variance is nothing to be concerned about in my opinion, but i would make OAL closer to 1.120. This would allow for variances inherent in the die itself as you have already observed for yourself. It would give you more of a buffer with regards to seating the bullet too deep or too long.

Chicken-Farmer

 

[flynlr]

My M&P 40 shoots best when my loads are seated at 1.125

 

[tydephan]

Excellent info. I'll dial the seating die up a little.

Here is my other problem. I'm using RCBS dies and mixed headstamp nickel brass.

I loaded 81 rounds yesterday. I spot checked a few rounds here and there to make sure they were within specs.

When I got home last night, I was dropping each into my M&P barrel to verify they would chamber as sort of a last check.

Of the 81 rounds, 16 would not chamber. They would go in about 3/4 of the way, and then become lodged.

All of the rounds were headstamped RP.

Could it be that the brass was previously fired through a Glock and my RCBS die simply wasn't able to size it down around the case head?

 

[Spencer Hart]

Don't feel bad, the first round I loaded (no powder or primer), I set up the dies, seated the bullet and quickly realized I did not properly set the seating die as the bullet top was flush with the top of the case....

 

[Chicken-Farmer]

When you resize the brass do you have the resize die touch the shell holder when the press is at the top of it's stroke? It sounds as if you are not getting a full resize on the brass. After being resized, all 40 S&W brass should fit into your chamber freely.

Chicken-Farmer

 

[tydephan]

When you resize the brass do you have the resize die touch the shell holder when the press is at the top of it's stroke?

I do. Which is why I am so puzzled. At first, I did not have this set correctly. But now the die is set to actually touch the shell plate on the full stroke.

I'm going to play around with it some more.

The first night I did this, loading some dummy rounds, I was actually crushing some cases during the "seating/crimping" stage. I'm using the RCBS dies and the die body is used to crimp and the inner stem is used to seat the bullet. I had my bullet depth set where I wanted it, but I think I was running the crimp down too far and the result was cases that were actually rippling toward the bottom of the case.

I attributed some of this "ripple" in the brass to a stray piece of metal that had become lodged in the seater stem, which was cocking the bullet to one side and, I suppose, placing uneven pressure on the case, causing one side to buckle/ripple.

I cleaned the die and backed off the crimp significantly and that seemed to fix that issue. However maybe my problem is still I have that die set too low and it is still buckling the case enough to be problematic.

I'll give some more specific data tonight when I can get back to the bench and figure out what the hell is going on.

 

[rcmodel]

Tydephan
I took the liberty of posting my reply to your PM this morning.
Let us know what you find.

O.K.
SAAMI spec for the .40 S&W is .423", so I am positive your Glock will accept that & more, as you noted.

Properly made sizing dies will size any case to below SAAMI spec, regardless of brand of case.
The expander opens it back up to accept the bullet.

Speer manual says seating OAL should be 1.120" with that bullet.
You are seating .005" less and while I doubt this is the problem, it is possible some of the cases have more wall taper internally then others. SO, the base of the long 180 bullet is hitting the internal taper and forcing the case wall out until it bulges.

Here is what I suggest.
Get yourself a black Magic-Marker.
"Color" some of the rounds that won't chamber, and force them in the chamber with your thumb.
Knock them back out with a cleaning rod or something and see what is rubbing the black off.
Wherever that is, is the problem.

It could be some of the mixed Rem cases have thicker necks then others, and when you seat the bullet, it expands the case mouth larger then .423".

It could be the bullet is contacting the rifling leade before the case is able to fully chamber.

I would also suggest you sort your cases by brand, and deal with these issues separately until you figure out what is going on.

You also need to get some sort of dial or digital caliper to help you figure it out.

Hope this helps.

rc

 

[bobotech]

Whenever I set my sizing dies, I will run it down til it contacts the shell holder and then give it a good 1/4 to 1/2 turn more so that you can "feel" the press cam over. not just touching but actually feeling the camming action as it cams over. It should feel like you are tightening down a small quarter inch bolt head on a piece of aluminum with a ratchet.

 

[bobotech]

Also coke bottleing of cases after seating and crimping is perfectly normal in a lot of instances. I know that my 40, 45acp, 50ae, and 9mm have all done it.

 

[Chicken-Farmer]

It sounds to me like you need to increase the expander die a little. Bell the case mouth out just enough to be able to start the bullet by hand. Too little expansion and the case will buckle, too much bell and the seating crimping die won't allow the case to fit. With the RCBS dies I have found that i need to read the set up instructions step by step in order to get the right results. The instructions can be complicated at times, but once the dies are set up they won't move as long as you use the same type of bullet you can reload for ever without adjustment. Lee has the factory die that ensures the rounds will chamber in all factory spec chambers.

Chicken-Farmer

 

[tydephan]

Well I found the problem. I pulled one of the problematic cartridges.

Resized it, and the casing slipped right down into my M&P40 barrel. So, the sizer die was ruled out as the issue.

Which only left the crimp die. Sure enough, it was set too low. I ran it up all the way to where it wasn't crimping at all, and then just barely lowered it. Measured the mouth after crimping and it was perfectly in line with the rest of the case.

The finished cartridge dropped right into my barrel. I processed three more of the problematic cartridges and had the same result with each.

I also changed the depth to seat at 1.125 now, based on the advice above.

Thanks to everyone for their help!