Multiple failures to fire...

[tydephan]

During today's range session with my M&P40, I had 14 FTF out of 50 rounds of my .40S&W handloads.

Brass: Winchester Nickel
Bullet: 180gr Flat Nose Jacketed
Powder: Hodgdon Titegroup, 4.2gr
Primer: Remington 5 1/2 Small Pistol Magnum
COL: 1.125

All FTF had, what I consider to be a decent lick on the primer.

I rechambered the first 5 FTF for a "second-chance" firing, and only one ignited on the second chance.

I checked the primer depth, and all appeared to be seated just barely below flush.

So now I'm in this mysterious zone wondering if something is screwy with my loads or if my early run M&P40 has something wrong with it.

Compounding the issue is another 50 rounds out of the same loading session that fired without fail through my dad's Glock 22.

Any ideas?

 

[billybob44]

Really only one cause.

With what you said, there is really only one cause of this FTF=primer defect. I don't think I have had more than 3-4 FTF due to primers, in over 30 years of handloading. With that said, I do not think that I have loaded more than 2-300 Remington primers. I would say that you have a primer problem, even though the rounds went off in your Dad's gun. You may take the mis-fired rounds to your Dad, and see if they will fire in his weapon. If they do you have a gun problem.

 

[Kernel]

A headspace problem due to the way the cases were formed, or how the bullet was seated or crimped? Maybe the chamber is slightly oversized vs. your dad's gun. Could be a batch of bad prmers, but what are the odds?

 

[hillbillydelux]

Just curious. Why use magnum primers in the .40? Especially with tight group.

 

[Steve C]

I checked the primer depth, and all appeared to be seated just barely below flush

Checking the depth of the primer after loading tells you nothing about if its properly seated, it only tells you if the primer is below or above flush.

99% of the time a primer fails to go off is because they where not set to the bottom of the primer pocket. Primers need to be pushed to the bottom of the primer pocket with enough pressure to give it "set" in order to sensitize the primer and prevent any movement of the prime deeper into the pocket when struck by the firing pin.

New reloaders often make this mistake because they worry about crushing the primer. It takes a lot of force to crush a primer. I've downright flattened them and its take both hands on the press handle of my RCBS single stage to do it but despite being mashed flat and flush they still fired the round.

Only other issue could be if the bullet is seated too long and is engaging the rifeling just enough to provide a bit of cushion to the firing pin strike. Check for proper chambering in the removed barrel and compare to a factory round.

 

[Kernel]

I think Steve C is on to something.

 

[243winxb]

Clean the firing pin channel ,Striker Block, Safety. If you cant take it apart, spray with WD-40. Does it have an internal lock system, is that working, set correctly?

 

[Cajun CB]

Did you take any of the FTF cartridges apart to see what is in them?

 

[The Bushmaster]

The fired in one gun and wouldn't fire in another. Cause: Primers not seated deep enough, firing pin channel gummed up or hammer spring weak...

I have never had a failure to fire with any primers. The only primers I have no experience with are wolf. I keep my guns clean and I don't mess with hammer springs. And when I am installing primers I SEAT them with a bit of pressure to insure they are SEATED...

 

[Hutch]

Did you try any factory <gulp> ammo in the M&P? If they have FTF, the it pret' near HAS to be yo' pistol.

 

[tydephan]

Did you try any factory <gulp> ammo in the M&P? If they have FTF, the it pret' near HAS to be yo' pistol.

It's had plenty of factory ammo through it in the past and I've never experienced an issue.

Did you take any of the FTF cartridges apart to see what is in them?

I haven't yet, but that is in the plans for today.

Clean the firing pin channel ,Striker Block, Safety. If you cant take it apart, spray with WD-40. Does it have an internal lock system, is that working, set correctly?

I cleaned it thoroughly last night. I clean the firing pin channel and the striker assembly every time I clean the gun, so it wasn't very dirty at all. I don't have the ILS on this one.

New reloaders often make this mistake because they worry about crushing the primer. It takes a lot of force to crush a primer. I've downright flattened them and its take both hands on the press handle of my RCBS single stage to do it but despite being mashed flat and flush they still fired the round.

Well, I am a noob. I don't worry about crushing the primer, but I do worry about seating it so deep that the firing pin doesn't strike hard enough on it. That appears easy to do with this combination of Remington primers and Winchester cases. I may load a few today and test to see if this is the issue.

Just curious. Why use magnum primers in the .40? Especially with tight group.

Cuz that's what the Remington web site told me to use. They recommend their 5 1/2 primers for .40S&W.

 

[tydephan]

I'm going back to the range in a little while to shoot another box of 50 to see if the problem persists.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Don't be afraid to really seat those primers when priming cases. But don't reseat primers in a loaded round...

 

[rcmodel]

Excesse taper crimp could allow the case to go in the chamber so far the striker can't reach the primer well enough to give it a good smack.

Measure your case mouths on a few completed rounds and see if they still measure around .420" - .423".

If they are smaller then that, you have too much crimp and the case mouth is missing the headspace shoulder in the chamber.

Also, take the barrel out of the gun and chamber-check the rounds. See if the rim is even with the end of the barrel hood when you firmly press them into the chamber.

Cuz that's what the Remington web site told me to use. They recommend their 5 1/2 primers for .40S&W.

Thats odd.
I have never seen anything on the Remington website for any primer / caliber recommendations, or any reloading data published by them.

Just FYI, you should not be using Magnum primers in the .40 S&W unless you have a reloading manual that tells you to use them.
And I have never seen any that do.

rc

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Next time you're loading- Don't worry about firing pin reach. Just feel for the primer "bottoming out" in the pocket. It should slide in with some resistance and then come to a very positive stop.

A properly seated primer will go off with a light strike much more readily than a shallow seated one with a heavy strike anyway.

 

[tydephan]

Measure your case mouths on a few completed rounds and see if they still measure around .420" - .423".

If they are smaller then that, you have too much crimp and the case mouth is missing the headspace shoulder in the chamber.

I have been spot checking and most were .422. I will check this specifically on the rounds that failed to fire though.

Also, I have been chamber checking every round immediately after loading and haven't had any issues.

Maybe I have been too gentle when seating the primers.

Thats odd.
I have never seen anything on the Remington website for any primer / caliber recommendations, or any reloading data published by them.

Just FYI, you should not be using Magnum primers in the .40 S&W unless you have a reloading manual that tells you to use them.
And I have never seen any that do.

http://remington.custhelp.com/cgi-b...j0yLjE4JnBfY3Y9JnBfcGFnZT0y&p_li=&p_topview=1

Can primers be used interchangeably?

Answer
Generally, no. The 97* and 209P (Premier) are interchangeable in Alliant powder shotshell data. The 57* and the 209 (non-Premier) were both different from the 209P (Premier). The 57* was smaller in diameter, and the 209 (non-Premier) was slightly hotter. The new 209 STS primer is interchangeable with the 209P (Premier) primer in most recipes. It is always best to check with the powder manufacturer when you have a question about a specific recipe. The 209-4 is a primer specifically made for use in .410 shotshell loads although there are no current recipes listed by the powder manufacturers using it. The 209-4 should not be used in gauges other than the .410 due to its lower energy level.

In pistol cartridges, the 1-1/2 small pistol primer should not be used in the 357 Magnum, 357 SIG or the 40 S&W. The 5-1/2 small pistol primer is the proper selection for these rounds.

This is what I was basing my decision to use those primers on.

 

[rcmodel]

O.K. You got me!
I had never seen that reference to Remington Sm pistol primers before anywhere.

It strikes me as the same deal as Remington's Sm Rifle primers though.

They make a 6 1/2 SM Rifle which has a softer/thinner cup, and it is used in low pressure rifle rounds like the .22 Hornet & .218 Bee.

The harder 7 1/2 SM Rifle is not really a 'Magnum" primer, but it has a harder / thicker cup for use in high pressure rounds like the .223.

Sounds like they are doing the same thing by recommending the 5 1/2 for high-pressure pistol calibers.

It's not so much for the hotter mag primer ignition, as for the ability to better handle the higher pressure rounds.

rc

 

[tydephan]

Well, today's session yielded the exact same results.

Some additional info.

Out of the first 20 rounds, 8 were failures to fire. All had a strike on the primer.

I carried my G22 and tested 15 through it, all fired without fail.

I also carried 20 rounds of factory UMC and all fired without fail through the M&P40. So, it is working fine on factory ammo.

I put the caliper to the failed rounds. Case mouth on all was between .420 - .422. Overall length varied from 1.125 to 1.128.

I believe the issue to be the cup hardness of the magnum primer. Unfortunately, the only primers I have are Remington 5 1/2 primers right now. I have some Remington 1 1/2 primers and Wolf Small Pistol primers on order.

I am also going to call Smith in the morning and explain the situation to them and ask if they have any suggestions. Maybe a heavier striker spring? I dunno. I just don't think there is anything wrong with these handloads other than a thick primer.

Of course, my dad's explanation is that I need to get rid of the sissy gun and go back with my Glock.

I'm going to take some pictures of the failed rounds next to unfired rounds in a little while and upload them.

 

[1SOW]

My CZs hammer spring weight is reduced to improve trigger pull. It will always give 'nice lick' to a CCI/Win sp primer, but it FTFs about 1 in 20 or more. I have to use a light strike primer like the Federal sp primers to ensure 100% bangs.

Sounds like the Rem sp magnum primer doesn't like your M&Ps spring wgt. A couple (?) of pounds heavier will probably fire them if it's worth doing.

 

[tydephan]

I inspected the gun tonight and found some gunk in the striker channel. I cleaned it out thoroughly, and went to the back of the property to test, hoping I had found the cause.

13 rounds. 3 FTF. All three have a solid strike on the primer, albeit slightly off-center.

The only thing I know to do is load another set of 20, making sure I seat the primer solidly and try those. That would at least help me rule out primer seating as a variable.

I appreciate the help, guys. It's very frustrating.

 

[45ACPUSER]

Actually the Remington 7.5 used to be labeled a small rifle magnum primer......

 

[Cloudpeak]

I have to use a light strike primer like the Federal sp primers to ensure 100% bangs

My plate shooting buddy has to use the Federal SP primers in his modified Glock with a light trigger and striker spring mod to get 100% ignition. I guess they have a bit softer primer cups.