First Casting Experience

[Steve Swartz]

So I read up all the threads I could about casting, googled up some expert advice, bought the equipment, and it finally stopped raining last night.

1) I bought the Lee Production Pot IV cause I'm casting .36 cal RB; don't need a lot of capcity, right? Guess what- the ingots I bought for casting won't fit in the pot! D'OH! So my 500W pot is churing away while I'm chopping up lead blocks with a mallet and chisel . . . [solution: I am melting down large ingots into smaller Lyman 1-lb ingots. This means I am melting, and making ingots (losing a bit of lead in the process) and will have to melt again to make the balls. Any issue with melting/remelting/etc.?]

2) So I finally have a bunch of liquid lead in a pot with a huge layer of multicolored "scum" on top. What's up with that? I dropped in a pinch or two of flux and after some smoky outgassing ended up with a little floating island of some black crusty stuff which I scooped out and discarded. [ladle was also too big for pot! Wife won't miss that stainless steel spoon I hope] After fluxing, still had crusty layer on top. Crusty layer on the valve rod. Crusty layer on the thermometer. And after finishing, crusty stuff stuck to inside of pot etc. Is this just lead oxide? Throw away? Remelt? How do I scrape that stuff off of all my tools? It looks a lot like electrical solder but is much tougher and harder . . .

3) Finally went ahead and started pouring (bottom spout) into my 2-cavity mold. WOO-HOO! Well, Important Safety Tip: don't forget to *completely* degrease the mold assembly . . . had some residual oil under the sprue plate which oozed/seeped/burned into the cavities. Also- beginner mistake- I guess the proper way to use a 2-cavity mold is to alternate pouring/sprue cutting/dropping between the two cavities? After pouring one cavity, the pour spout sealed up and wouldn't pour again for about 30 seconds. Finally got in a rythm and seemed to be able to just go back and forth between cavities at a constant pace . . . is this the right technique?

4) Temperature control: I read somewhere that for pure lead (what I am using) around 600 degrees is a good temperature. Well . . . see comments about small pot/big ingots . . . I had to "crank that sucker up to 11" just to get some melting, and then never could get the lead back down to 600 degrees without the surface crust getting deeper and thicker. So for a small pot, there seems to be a tradeoff between the temperature and ability to actually use all the lead? At the end of the session, I had a big bunch of "slag" (see above) that seemed to be wasted. Is this normal? Or just bad temperature control?

oh yeah and wood particles from my mallet kept falling in the pot every time I tapped the sprue cutter. I guess holding the die over the pot so the sprue falls back into the melt is not such a hot idea either, contamination-wise!

Anyhow

Great fun . . . and nothing says "Oh Sh*t" like a stuck spout valve! (the patio will never look the same again)

Steve in North Texas

 

[Duncaninfrance]

A Whole New World!!

Some answers for you Steve. Not everyone will agree with me but I do it this way.
I cast .457 round balls in a Pedersoli Double mold.
I DON'T use a bottom porer pot or a thermometer.

1) You can re-melt as often as you like and add more lead as you go. No Problem. The secret is to keep the lead clean.
2) To flux the lead use beeswax / candle wax / olive oil (messy)/ sawdust ( my preference). Add it, stir it in and then skim the crap off the surface and dump it in a bin. You can use any kind of metal spoon for this. Just watch the handle getting hot.
3) I use a ladle ( I heat my lead in an alluminium pan on a gas ring ) and I can pour 2 balls at a time with perfect results.

When I have poured I leave the mold for about 5 seconds then cut the sprue into an old pan and drop the cast balls into a bucket of water. The bucket is on the floor and about 18" below the table I have the lead on so there is NO possibility of water splashing into the hot lead.

While sorting out the mold I leave the ladle IN the lead bath to maintain it's temperature.

If you are having problems with wood splinters from your mallet than you are hitting things TOO hard. A tap should be enough to loose the balls.

I do not check temperature as you can gauge the right temp by how the lead flows from the ladle and the quality of the cast ball.

I cast about 200-250 .457 at a time and I get consistent weight/shape this way. Any 'reject balls' are simply added to the next melt and cast again!

One thing I do do is to spend a session just making ingots that will fit my pan so I aways have a stock of raw material to hand. I use small flan tins to make ingots.

Hope some of this will help

To those of you who are getting ready to shout about water quenching - as long as the water bath is lower than the melt then there is NO danger and IMHO there is NO distortion to a solid ball when quenched.

If you want to get deeper into casting then I suggest you look at http://castboolits.gunloads.com/ where you will find all manner of information.

 

[Steve499]

The longer I cast bullets, the less I know about it. I will say with as much certainty as I'm capable of having that casting round balls is the least problematic of all such endeavors, and should not cause one to exercise his vocabulary too freely.

The scum on a pot of pure lead is lead oxide. You can skim it off but it will skin over again soon. I have a bottom pour lead pot so I don't worry with trying to keep it skimmed off perfectly. If you are casting lead alloy, the scum will also have some of the alloying metal in a greater concentration, and that's where fluxing comes in. I read that fluxing is supposed to re-integrate the alloy with the lead.

I have 10 or so molds. I swear, each one wants to be treated differently before it rewards me with good bullets. I have one mold which refuses to fill out unless I keep it heated between casts with a propane torch. It is a 2 cavity mold for a 550 grain, .45 bullet, and I only use one cavity, so it's understandable it wouldn't retain heat as well as one with more metal and less cavity in the blocks. Still, I cussed that thing more than a time or two before I finally figured out how to make it work. I personally don't like two cavity molds since I haven't ever had one where bullets from both cavities weighed the same. I've not tried any multiple cavity molds for round balls, though. The round ball casts easily enough that weight variation between cavities might not be a problem.

As far as lead temperature goes, the pouring spout at the bottom of the pot is probably the coolest part on it. I have no idea where the thermostat is located on these things, but if you are having the spout cork up for any time at all after pouring, it tells me the pot temperature needs to be higher, no matter what the dial says. I sometimes use my propane torch on the pour spout to kick the heat up there if it is sticky after adding cold metal to the pot.

I never empty my pot out. When I'm finished casting, I add metal enough to nearly fill the pot before I unplug it. That causes the entire inner surface of the pot to be in contact with the metal when it's time to heat it up the next time. I make sure the plunger is well seated before the pot cools, and I never heat it up again without being right there. The valve can stick open, as you learned! I keep a screwdriver handy to seat the plunger by turning it by it's slotted top.

I added a block to my pot to space the pour spout high enough from the base to allow me to get a minie mold with it's hollow base pin in there. I also make use of aluminum flashing to help me manage drips, spatters, splatters and sprues. I dump all my sprues into the pan at the bottom of the aluminum ramp and then use a spoon to gently empty it back into the pot.

I cast my first bullets from an old brass mold in 1970, melting my lead in a home made ladle on the kitchen stove. It worked. I never had a reject! Now, I have all the stuff and if I get 3 out of 4 (except for round balls), I'm doing good. So be careful. Years and years of casting may cause some strange diminishment in ones abilities. Enjoy it while you can!!!

Steve

 

[Bryan James]

I haven't casted bullets yet, but have done a lot of pewter castings over the years.
what was mention about beeswax is good tip for skiming the oxide off the top, but watch how much beeswax you add. just a little bit, if you put to much in the beeswax will ignite and burn.

personally after replacing two casting pots I no longer leave mine filled.

for ingots that are two large, i've either hacksaw them into small pieces or just hold them in a wielders glove and use a tourch to melt them into the pot, or a pan to let them cool into smaller pieces.

another important safety tip, make sure there's no water on your molds, Once when casting with an rtv rubber mold, got some water that splashed onto the mold, didn't notice and had a nice steam shot of hot pewter

last tip, I took a sheet of mdf, and screw 1x2 down as a lip, the pot sits in the center of the board (the board is large since i keep tools and put the oxide that is skimmed off on it. the reason for the board with the lip is more then once something has either gotten into the pot by accident or something with the lever stuck, and drained the whole pot. the lip is there to try to contain the spill, or at least to give you time to get out of the way and not in your lap.

 

[ADKWOODSMAN]

I was taught to light the burning wax. A good source of wax is old crayons. If you cast near your feet always wear boots with the pant leg over the boot. You'll never forget hot lead down the boot! I'm NOT speaking from experience, my teacher said he heard of a case.

 

[hildo]

Threw in 2 pieces of beesway, the size of a pea, to flux my (used) lead. The fumes started burning by itself while stirring the lead.
I would never cast bullets inside the house though, apart from the fact the woodfire would give quite a mess, lead fumes are far from healty.

After skimming the burned residue fromthe lead it looked like a puddle of silver and would cast excellent. I did not flux my lead the previous casting session but this time it seemed to stay clean op top for a longer period.

I let the bullets fall on a towel, as instructed with the Lee bullet mold. Works fine for me.

This is the way the .515-450 bullets came out. Shootable but not quite perfect. Have read on the site of a professional bullet caster he uses just 1 1/2 to 2% of tin that makes the lead flow more evenly in the bulletmold. Next time I will throw in some tin to see the difference.

The end result. Apart from backpain I got about 650 .457" roundballs and 250 .515-450 bullets.
The roundballs I cast in a double cavity Lee mold and cast 2 at the time with fine results, I found no need to use just a single cavity. I whack open the sprue plate quite soon so the mold will stay nice and warm. It is important to keep a good eye on the mold when closing it, make sure it is perfectly closed or you will find out that you will have to reject more of your artwork than necessary.

 

[Duncaninfrance]

Good post hildo. When you finish do you throw a couple of steaks on

 

[sundance44s]

Hildo..now thats the way I like to cast ..I use a propane stove single burner ..and when I cast I cast alot of balls /bullets at one time ...Uasually durning cooler weather .. I tried the electric lee pot ,and it didn`t last 6 months , It just didn`t get hot enough and hold the high temp for me .. I prefer 800 degree for casting I can knock my spurs back in the pot and not worrie about them cooling things down .../ big problem I had with the ele lee pot . I always use a piece of wax the size of my thumb nail to flux and I light the top of the pot when it starts to smoke and stir it in from the bottom of the pot ...couldn`t do that in the house ..

 

[rusty from italy]

Hallo hildo

Shootable but not quite perfect. Have read on the site of a professional bullet caster he uses just 1 1/2 to 2% of tin that makes the lead flow more evenly in the bulletmold. Next time I will throw in some tin to see the difference.

Yuo're true, not perfect, the base should be sharp, but i make the .451 flat base bullet with pure lead too, i think your melt lead is too cold.
A sharpy bullet come out when the lead is around 550°C you must see a little of blue pitting in the finished balls, cast round balls is easy, elongated bullet not so easy but made good miniè without deep hole in the cavity is very hard!!
I shoot more than one thausand of .58 minie at year

Ciao
Rusty

 

[Steve Swartz]

Great ideas and feedback from all!

I continue to be amazed at the wealth of information and experience in this forum- and the willingness to help a newbie!

(Hildo- that is some "Old School" open-pit barbeque style casting . . . I was surprised at the nuimber of people who get excellent results using "low tech" equipment.)

I was only able to pour 70 balls the first time (bad weather here) but was actually pleased with the results. Even with all my "issues" all 70 weighed out between 64.5 and 65.5 grains. Remember, this includes the "cold" early balls and the "overheated" ones in the middle. And the ones that must have had wood chips in them! 55 out of the 70 weighed 65.2-65.4 grains!

Some are a little "dull" and a few "wrinkly" etc. but I think I will throw the light/heavy ones back in the pot and shoot the rest.

I'm looking forward to firing up the smelter for a longer session this weekend (if the tornadoes stay away). Changes:

- Will pre-melt the large ingots (with a propane torch) into smaller ingots for less "fooling around" initially
- Will flux/skim every time I add more metal (didn't do first time) and will skim the obvious "scale" out of the way
- Will maintain a more even (and hotter) temperature throughout
- Will discard first ten balls or so to let mould heat up
- Will drop sprues off to the side; will try just pushing sprue cutter off to the side with leather gloves instead of whacking with old hammer handle
- Will be alittle more careful with cleaning/degreasing mould thoroughly ahead of time; also have some Frankford Arsenal "drop out spray" to try

hmmm . . . lots of good technique advice here guys. Like everything else, the good news/bad news is all the experimentation and fiddling around!

Steve in North Texas

 

[hildo]

Rusty, thanks for the temperature advise. I did't know, just had 3 casting sessions and it was the first time I have cast the big bullets.

The woodfire is a bit tricky in reaching, and holding, the right temp. I actually saw it stiffen up and my casting ladle eventually got stuck in the lead when I was too late with adding new wood. Next time will use a propane burner of the type that is used for repairing a roof for more continues heat, get a bit of tin to improve flow and maybe even a thermometer if I have some money left. I also read that with adding tin it is possible to cast lead at a lower temperature. Maybe this gives less residue.

Steve, old style adds to the experience, it also adds to the smell of your cloths afterwards
Melting the ingots on an open flame will probably burns up some lead. I did melt some of old flaps of roof lead too to get the lead melted quicker, and could see it changing on top to the hard flaky residue that must be removed afterwards.

Casting is not difficult, but I don't find it easy to get a perfect result.
It is like with everyting, you learn a bit, then dig deeper into it and find you have much more to learn.
Next time I will try a .500-365 Minie and the .450-200 revolver bullets.
Received the new Lee molds and just can't wait!

 

[Steve Swartz]

Speaking of Temperature

Hildo:

Speaking of temperature (and lead loss) I just got done melting down some large (8 lb) ingots of "pure" lead into smaller (1 lb) ingots so they would fit into my Lee electric pot. This was a fascinating experience, and I am learning quite a bit about the "personality" of lead! But more questions came up:

O.k., is there a difference between "regular slag" (scaly stuff that floats to the top of the pot initially before fluxing and collects on sides of pot) and "contaminants" (darker stuff that floats to top, collects in center of pot after fluxing)? Regular slag seems to be a very hard, less dense version of lead . . . is this just "lead oxide?" My pot is filled with the stuff and I have some in/on my dipper. Crusty looking, not easily scraped off and a propane torch won't melt it- it just "burns" a little (becomes discolored). What's up with that?

So I stir in a small amount of Frankford Arsenal fluxing compound . . . but it rolls into a ball and doesn't seems to mix well with the lead. I have to kind of violentlyswish it around to get any mixing at all. After a few seconds, the surface of the pot gets "foamy" like carbonated beverage and a small island of darker looking "slaggy" stuff forms in the middle of the pot. I skim (I made a combination stirrer/skimmer with a stainless steel martini-olive scooper thing) the darker surface scum off and BEAUTY! teh surface looks like pure, liquid silvery (mercury) stuff . . . for a few seconds . . . then a blue-ish tinted skim begins to form. Eventually, something >similar< to "regular slag" begins to form on the surface. This is lead oxide? I can just ignore it?

Brand new dipper in pot after skimming. Uh Oh. This coat of preservative apparently on dipper. After the dipper smokes a while I consider fluxing again but figure what the hey and begin pouring into the small ingot mold. Two scoops per ingot. Wow- this going well! Like pouring mercury . . . as level of lead gets lower, I notice more and more "slag" ("scale?") forming on dipper handle and sides of pot. Doesn't seem to melt back into the mix at all. Also, scum on top of pot seems to be getting thicker/more troublesome.

So I add more lead- takes a Lo-o-o-o-ong time to melt. Lots and lots of scale/slag forming. Flux again (Woo-Hoo! I love the way the pot looks after skimming off the stuff the flux kicks up.) Pour some more ingots, but that danged scale/slag is really building up seemingly everywhere. The heat on my Coleman stove is maxed out, but this crusty stuff is not melting and seems to be forming everywhere.

Anyone tell me what's going on with this crusty/foamy/scaly stuff forming on/in the ladle, sides of pot, etc.?

Should I just keep aggressively skimming this stuff away during the session to keep it at a minimum inside the pot?

Great fun though- I only lost about 1.5 lbs of weight out of my total 22 lbs of large ingots so the crap I skimmed out and stuff left coating everything wasn't that big of an efficiency loss.

Oh yeah- so how do I clean everything up now that everything is covered with this hard, crusty metal?

Steve in North Texas

 

[take1a]

melting old bullets

Hello, I'm new to this site, forum, AND new to melting lead. Need some advice. I've decided to purchase a Caldwell Lead Sled, and am trying to come up with a cheap way to acquire the lead "ballast" that I'll need to give the Lead Sled the weight it needs. Decided to look for lead scrap, so I could melt it into ingots, then can use as much or as little as I want with the Sled.

Came across LOTS of old muzzleloading bullets (like 150 pounds) that a buddy discarded. But, the bullets have all been lubed with Wonder Lube, or something similar. Plus, the bullets are pretty dirty from sitting outside in a 5 gallon bucket.

So, here's my question: I'm hoping it's safe for me to re-melt these bullets, and then just skim off the old Lube. Dumb idea? Easy to do? Safe?

 

[arcticap]

Maybe you can melt off the old lube prior to melting down the bullets which may help to get rid of some of the dirt that's imbedded in the lube. That old lube may smoke like a champ if you don't dispose of some of it first.
Also, you want to make sure that there's no moisture mixed in with the old bullets or lube if it all gets melted down together.

BTW, what exactly is a lead sled?

 

[take1a]

Lead sled

A Caldwell Lead Sled is a gun rest for the shooting range. Do a Google image search for it. Looks like a great way to shoot higher powered rifles at the range, while taking the sting out of the recoil.

 

[GP100man]

fellers melting lead in alumilium is bad mojo,reaching 1/2 the melting point of alumilium or better,any ways the alumilium is weakened severly under that kind of heat & pressure.
i use only steel ,after cracking both ,alumilium & cast iron pots & full safety gear!!
ps when i smelt lead ,being old ww or boolits or lead pipe ,i do it out side & let er smoke away, then when it clears i skim the top off
7 flux the pot ,which holds about 30# ,with candle wax from the smelly ones from the house when i dont get caught, about 3 good times or until no more skum comes to the top.

GP100man

 

[hildo]

more than one 'lead oxide'?

Steve Swartz,

Read your post, and honestly I don't know if there are more kinds of residue that can form on top of the melted lead.
I think it may have to do with temperature.

The hard unmeltable crusty flaky stuff that forms on top is burned lead in my view, most of it anyways. When I was casting lead the first time I had lot's of it, and after skimming it of the top it would not take long to form another layer that needed to be skimmed off.
The last time I was casting I had fluxed the lead (small piece of beeswax) for the first time prior to casting and it seemed to stay in good shape for a much longer period.
Holding a flame directly onto the lead formed the hard crusty stuff instantly.

I think it may be best to cast at a low as possible temperature, but bearing in mind that you stil must have a good result. My result was not quite perfect with the large 515-450 bullets because of a too low temperture.
Since I read that when adding tin to the lead improves it's flowing capacity in the mold this may be a way to get away with casting at a bit lower temperature and keeping the lead in a better shape for a longer period during the casting.

I had no island of darker stuff forming in the middle
Last time I did have new residue forming but not very quick and cold cast quite long before having to skim the surface again.
Used scrap lead and looked at sand floating on top of the lead... Funny to see but lead is heavy and even sand will actually float too.
I will keep everybody up to date with my next casting session where I will use a little tin in it (1 1/2 to 2% in weight) too see if I can see a noticible difference in casting characteristics.

For all to remember, since I do not see it mentioned a lot...
Lead and lead fumes are poisonous. Would recommend casting outside only.
Keep the wind in your back or from your side so fumes blow away from you.

 

[Steve Swartz]

Hildo and All:

Just had another casting session- this one went a lot better, as I set my temperature fairly high for initial melting and then reduced it somewhat; just high enough so that the bottom-pour spout stayed liquid (so I could pour in two cavities one right after the other).

So I think I figured the temperature thing out a little better (thanks all for advice!).

Next, I fluxed three times during the session. First time, I did get some crusty stuff (impurities) like last time- but subsequent fluxing actually resulted in the "crust" being "re-absorbed" back into the pot to a very large degree. Much cleaner, efficient process. Had much less "skim" to deal with this time. I'm thinking the first melt/fluxing resulted in the actual impurities being removed, and subsequent fluxing helped to mix hte lead oxide back into "solution."

Well, that's my theory!

Poured about ten castings to let the mould warm up thoroughly, then cast 104 round balls. Let the balls from each mould (front cavity vs. rear cavity) drop into separate pans.

Both sets of castings were very consistent; with over 80% of each batch fallling within +- 0.1 grain of the average! I was quite happy with that. A very slight casting seam, and the sprues did not look too bad (they were all kind of "smeared" to one side though).

Only problem: the front cavity throws a ball that weighs ~0.4 grains heavier than the rear cavity. Just as consistent, but heavier. Wonder if I should keep them separate for competition shooting . . .

Steve Swartz

 

[take1a]

fluxing

Could someone describe what fluxing is, and how to do it correctly. Keep it simple; I'm a newbie.

 

[Aries-]

from the pix it looks like the mold inst hot enough. thats the way the first dozen or so come out when making the bullets for my dads enfield. after that they come out nice and smoothe. also all perfectly weighted 560grains +- 5 grains.

we melt the lead in a aluminum pot, on a colmans camp stove in the garage. (doors open to clear the fumes unless its a windy day then it messes with the flames)

i love sitting making bullets. its always fun. (mind you im a fire bug )

 

[Steve499]

Take1a, fluxing is the act of adding a small piece (pea size or so) of bullet lube, or any other substance of similar composition to the top of the molten lead and then stirring the lead well.

I suppose there must be some virtue in fluxing, but my lead rarely gets it. It's another of those things which may tend to make the uninitiated think casting bullets is some complicated, intricate process. Though one can go to great lengths in the casting process, until you are trying to produce match-quality bullets, simple works! I doubt if the long hunters casting round balls around the campfire for their Pennsylvania/Kentucky rifles fretted too much about fluxing their cast iron ladle, and they had quite a bit riding on those balls.

Steve, that weight variation you observed in your bullets from a double cavity mold is the reason I just won't buy one any longer. I have a couple and only use a single cavity in each. In a round ball fired from a percussion revolver, I imagine a few grains of variation in the bullets would be invisible in the much, much larger accuracy variation caused by me shooting them, but for my 45/70 and .451 Volunteer, I try to achieve as much uniformity as I can.

Steve

 

[O.S.O.K.]

hildo

Great pics!

I cast inside but have a good breeze blowing through my shop to carry the fumes away.

I totally agree with the comment about melting in aluminum! Although I couldn't see which reply referred to it. Bottom line, don't do it. My Lee lead pots are aluminum on the outside but they are insulated and have a steel pot on the inside. Cast iron makes a great casting pot.

When using a dipper, I recommend 600-650 degrees f for pure lead or 50 to 30-1 lead/tin alloys. If the bullets or balls drop from the mould with a frosted apearance, the melt is too hot.

 

[Afy]

Hildo... you're really going the whole way down the road from casting to reloading... great job.

Are you going to try to make your own powder? That would be amazingly interesting as well.

BTW How is the reloading going? Pictures of the process... couldnt find them on the blog. But did try a couple of recipies ...

 

[hildo]

Afy,
It is great to learn and trying to overcome the problems that I run into.
Casting bullets for my 50/70 Rolling Block, and then find out the .515" bullets (250 of them!) don't fit the case that is .500" on the inside... for instance. Don't have a die set or press yet so sanded down the bullets to approx. .500".
After shooting the case was .508" or so. It's getting closer.
The whole process unfolds slowly on my website as I go along in my learning.
http://www.twolefthands.nl/Zwart Kruit/page10/zwartkruit10.htm

Offtopic.. Just have to tell this...
Last week I have been in the U.S.A. for a learning course for my work... and met a gunlover with a 'facination for guns' in a gunshop. If I wanted to come and do some shooting?
Sure I did! And did I enjoy the not so strict gunlaws in the States? You bet!
This truly great guy let me shoot some of his guns untill it finally got too dark.
Great experience, had a blast and will never forget . See the pictures (not in English, but pictures say more than a thousand words, they say)
http://www.twolefthands.nl/Zwart Kruit/page10/Hildo_goes_usa/Hildo_goes_usa.htm

 

[Aries-]

in this day and age making your own blackpowder in north america would likely be impossable. trying to find salt peter would be very very hard. and to make enough powder to make it worth while. the fbi would want your name on file and crap lol.