First Center Fire Rifle

[mec]

I followed their break-in routine.actually, I cleaned and de-coppered a bit more often that every 20 shots. I used some cleaning chemestry I got from bushmaster and used sweets 7.62 for the copper. At first, quite a bit of copper came out- blue patch. Now, it takes quite a while to build up so, I guess the break=in routine works. I didn't use jandb bore paste but some of the local bench resters do and are not ruining their barrels. when I get through, I always wipe the copper solvent out with a regular bore cleaner, dry the bore pretty well and run a lightly oiled patch through it.

by the way. don't use paper towels for patches. ( and don't tell anybody I did) what happened is that a small piece tore off and got in the way just enough that the rifle wouldnt fire. Went click and all but was just enough out of battery that the firing pin wouldn't hit the primer.

 

[mike240se]

thanks mec, good info. i am thinking of ordering the jp enterprises bore guide its pricey but looks nice and figure might as well buy it once. i am also trying to find that sinclair cleaning pin thing that holds the gun open while you clean....

 

[Nhsport]

When I clean I like to take the upper off the lower and my vise will hold the uppper alone just fine.
You want a rod guide,this is a plastic or metal tube that slides into the rieciver and chamber to guide your rod into the barrel.
You also want a one piece rod. I use and like the Dewey with the jag as you can wrap a patch around it or spear a patch which saves you from threading the needle with the normal type of patch holders. Get yourself a bag of pre cut patches. Lots of the cleaning supplies at your local store will cost an arm and a leg in smaller sizes,start with that but then mail order from midway or Natches to save on larger sizes of cleaning stuff.
Different folks think highly or poorly about the bore paste , you will make you own choice, I am conservative and use it only now and then. The point is with your non crome barrel (which will be slightly more accurate) you need to clean not only powder fouling but copper based jacket material with a specific cleaner. Any of the regular cleaners will take some of it but a complete job needs a specific copper solvent , I use Butches Bore Scrub,I have used Sweets 7.62 in the past.Both are nasty smelling strong chemicals , take precautions and read directions ,proper use requires some soaking

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I've got a stainless match barrel myself and let me just say that the foaming bore cleaners like Wipeout are worth trying. I used to use Shooter's Choice myself and I've been really impressed with Wipeout.

 

[O.S.O.K.]

congrats!

Great choice for your chosen use!

I have a Bushy XPM15 E2S which is just their copy of the HBAR. It shoots great - 1" at 100 yards with Hot Shot SS109 ammo (no longer offered unfortunately as it really likes this ammo). I need to work up some good handloads for this as the Hot Shot won't last forever!

mec is right - Bushy's can and do often shoot much better than this. Especially the target/varmint models.

Here's a pic with an eotech scope and mount that I recently got:

I think I'll get a carbine with flat top in the near future (given funds forthcoming) and put the eotech on that.

 

[mike240se]

Ok i brought the gun to the range for the first time today. After taking it out of the box i cleaned the barrel well with shooters choice, did not touch or clean anything else including the bolt.

i fired one round and then it wouldnt fire again, so i racked the bolt, and it fired again, then it wouldnt fire again. so i tried a different brand ammo, this time it fired the first round and the bolt got stuck closed, i had to do the whole banging on the ground while pulling the bolt. and it kept not feeding from the mag right. so i tried tightening the mag catch by turning it clockwise once, no luck, tried turning it clockwise again, no luck.

it seemed like for the most part it worked best when i only loaded 3 rounds. its the stupid 5 round restricted hunting mag. does it sound like the mag? or maybe there was too much lube on the bolt assembly from the factory? it didnt say to clean it, just the barrel before shooting.

My plan is to a) buy a new 10 round mag before the range tomorrow to rule out the mag. and b) to clean the bolt assembly with clp tonight.

Any other ideas? Is this a common problem? I am a little upset that i am having problems with a brand new $1300 gun which broke my bank lol. I would appreciate any help.

Below is a picture of the damage done to the cases when they werent fed. i dont know whats crushing them, maybe a lip of the mag?

 

[mike240se]

I forgot to mention, the 3 bullets in the picture above were still in the magazine or on there way out of it, but were not taken from the chamber. After the rifle didnt fire i pulled the bolt, no round flew out, i ejected the mag and found the bullets above still in the mag/partly out of the mag/hanging out of the mag diagnanolly

Any help would be greatly appreciated i want to go back to the range with the gun tomorrow but dont want to till i know whats going on.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

That picture is HUGE!!! You really should crop out all the needless area around the shells.

 

[mike240se]

oops, i thought photobucket would resize it, i have cropped out all the blank space, and left the bullets full size so the damage is easy to see in detail.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Anytime you have a problem with an AR15, you should first check:

1) Ammunition
2) Magazine
3) Lubrication of the rifle

When you have ruled out those three elements (or at least cast doubt that they are the sole source of the problem), then start looking at the rifle and its parts.

In this case I would be willing to bet that the problem is #2. #3 may also be in play since new rifles often have some rough edges and need to run with a little more lubrication at first. Don't know where you are at; but if you can buy a GI mag to test it with (20 or 30) I would buy that instead of a 10rd. The aftermarket reduced capacity mags often have issues.

 

[mike240se]

Thanks for your insight. Unfortunately, as you have probably already guessed, i live in anti-gun, pro liberal, smoking banned everywhere (even in your car in some towns) NJ. And we have a retarded 15 round max mag law. Since there is only a 10 and a 20 i am stuck with the 10. Its gotta be better than the 5 ronder though. I cleaned and lubed the gun real good last night, i will see how it goes at the range today.

 

[mike240se]

Well I called bushmaster on my way to the range and there tech support thinks that the rifle was short stroking due to a gas problem. They had me tighten the gas block allen screws, i was able to tighten them about 1/4 of a turn with a small allen wrench, so its possible that was the problem because now the rifle is working great. it could also be that i cleaned the bolt carrier and parts out real good last night and didnt before i shot the gun, only the barrel was cleaned before shooting. I didnt even try my new magazine since it wasnt needed.

So hopefully it stays working cause its working great.

Does anyone own a sweet 223? I am having a problem getting it zeroed and the picture looks like crap compared to the sweet 22's i have seen. i am trying to figure out how these turrets work, i think you zero it at 100 yards and then take the turret off and set the turret at 100 yards but i am not sure. no instructions came with the scope except real basic general scope stuff. i also cant figure out how to focus it, i guess i cant, the paralax isnt a focus from what i understand.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well I called bushmaster on my way to the range and there tech support thinks that the rifle was short stroking due to a gas problem. They had me tighten the gas block allen screws, i was able to tighten them about 1/4 of a turn with a small allen wrench, so its possible that was the problem because now the rifle is working great.

Yes, that was probably the problem. You might want to put witness marks across the allen head screws so you can tell if they have worked loose in the future. Bushmaster really should have sent the rifle where that wouldn't be a problem to start with.

 

[mec]

they claim they test fire every one of these. My "Target" upper came in yesterday. It's an A2 configuration ( 20", carry handle, battle sights). I got it sighted in at 25 yards according to the instructions in the bushmaster manual. After returning the elevaton knob to 300yards, it appeard to be about right, hitting several inches high at 100 yards. I had to get my windage right at one hundred yards as my perception of zero at 25 was not very close.

I also tried some of the serbian ammuniton that will not function in my Predator upper. The A2 type eats it just fine.

 

[Geno]

Mike240SE:

Congratulations on that new rifle! Thanks for posting this thread. It contains some real good reading! I have the exact rifle you just bought. You will enjoy it. They are quite accurate! I would like to pick up one of Bushmaster's heavy varmint rifles. From all I have read, they are capable of consistent .5 MOA groups. That's unbelievable for an autoloader.

The problem for me, as others have hinted at here, is "free-price-abuse"-market. It is common to see Bushmasters listed for $150.00 to $200.00 over MSRP!!! Point and case, Bushmaster lists its MSRP for the Model 15 pistol at $970.00! I can buy it at Jay's in Clare, MI for $699.00! At Target in Royal Oak, MI, they had it listed at $1,095.00! Same pistol, different business. When I noticed Bushmaster's MSRPs listed, I confronted the workers at target about it and they retorted, "We have been after Bushmaster to remove the MSRP from their website! We can't sell our Bushmasters as long as they continue posting the MSRP!"

The rifle you just bought for $999.00, I paid $1,195.00 +.06 % tax at Target!!! That's "Jokeland" County for you...land of the perversely rich, and morally bankrupt!

Closing note, if you want to test that rifle out for its maximum accuracy, consider one of the BSA 36X scopes. I bought mine (on sale) at MidwayUSA for $59.00ish! That's a lot of reach out magnification. It's the scope I use when I want to see how accurate of my long guns is.

Oh wow...almost forgot...buy a container of Moly Slide Lubricant from Bushmaster! It is a must use product for durability. (Link provided): http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/gunsmith/
__________________

 

[mec]

I use that molyslide on the sear as they recommend. One canister should last a long time.

New "Target" upper on predator lower:

Almost there on the sight regulation:

Adventitious Runny Babbit. Not the best choice of rifle for this but the ball load eviscerated him without ruining any meat.

 

[mike240se]

Well unforunately my little problem has returned. Or never went away is more likely... at the range yesterday i tried loading the winchester ammo i had from day 1, it short stroked, didnt feed and the brass landed less than 1 foot away, 5 feet less than normal. so i stopped shooting and checked the 2 little allen screws in the gas block, they were able to be tightened a tiny bit, so i went home took them out and put locktite on them, and tried it the next day. American eagle as always shot well with no problems and the brass went flying. Next, i shot the same winchester, short stroke, no feed, problems. So i opened another box of winchester, same problem. So i looked around and found a guy shooting almost the exact same bushmaster at the range, he kindly fired my "possibly faulty" winchester ammo with great results, no short stroke, the brass went flying 10 feet and he said it was even more powerful than his custom loads and raised the hit point, so its not the ammo.

So now i am at a juncture of, shoot the ammo it likes or send it back for repair. I am not sure what i should do at this point... i was thinking of doing some hand loads and testing them at "start loads" and if they dont work def. send it back but if they do work, then maybe just keeping it the way it is. its weird it really works fine with american eagle and it did work with remington ammo over the past week but i havent tried it since, i will do that asap too.

Any help? everything seems fine, as far as i can tell, either the barrel hole into the gas block is too small or misaligned, we cant find anything else that could possibly be the problem...

bushmaster gurus?

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

What type of Winchester ammo are you firing? Is it marked 5.56mm or .223? Also, take a look at the rim of the fired cartridge and see what kind of bite the extractor is getting on the rim.

So i looked around and found a guy shooting almost the exact same bushmaster at the range

Did he have a Predator barrel or the standard Bushmaster barrel? It makes a difference because the two barrels use different chamber sizes and the standard chamber is chrome-lined as well.

 

[mike240se]

It was marked 5.56 on the box. I think it also said .223 in small letters.

Isnt the predator supposed to shoot both? I think the american eagle said .223 on the box, so did the remington.

Now that i think of it, he didnt have the exact same gun, it looked the same but it had a 24 inch barrel and he custom made it.



Are you saying i have a.223 chamber and he had a 5.56 chamber and the tiny difference in headspace makes a difference on the gas system?

EDIT: I just checked bushmaster's website and it says for caliber 5.56 or .223 on the products page.
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwvms20fpred8.asp

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well if he had a 24" custom barrel then all bets are off. There is no telling what the chamber dimensions were.

Are you saying i have a.223 chamber and he had a 5.56 chamber and the tiny difference in headspace makes a difference on the gas system?

The problem you are describing is a classic case of symptoms describing a chamber that is cut too small or too tight. I checked the Predator's specs and it is supposed to have a "hybrid" chamber similar to the Wylde that shoots either 5.56 or .223.

However, if the Winchester is marked 5.56, shoots very hot in another rifle and short strokes in yours while .223 AE works just fine, that is a classic example of a chamber problem. It typically happens when you fire 5.56mm in a .223 chamber. With the shorter leade of the .223 and the higher pressure of the 5.56mm, pressures build up to a high level. It generally isn't dangerous; but in a gas impingement rifle it means that the pressure is high enough that the bolt starts trying to extract before the pressure has dropped and the brass has shrunk away from the chamber wall. By the time the pressure drops to designed levels, the bolt has used all its energy and short strokes.

I would recommend calling back Bushmaster and explaining that you are still having short-stroking with Winchester 5.56; but that Federal AE223 runs just fine. They will likely want to blame the ammo. If they go that route, explain that the same Winchester 5.56 ammo was fired with no problem from a 24" target barrel. Suggest to them that you are concerned the chamber dimensions are not correct and ask them what they intend to do to fix the problem.

However, if you want to be on the safe side first, then just buy some commerical .223 loads and some military surplus 5.56mm loads. Try both and record where you have function issues. You might also consider making witness marks across the set screws of the gas block to insure that this does not contribute to the problem. I know it sucks to win the "You got the problem gun" lottery; but the Predator is a very quality rifle when built correctly and I expect Bushmaster will correct the problem fairly quickly. They have most of the same staff they had in the past and have always been good in the past; but a year or so ago they were acquired by a new company. So please let us know how they handle your concerns.

 

[mec]

I got into these ARs last summer with the Predator. Possibly about time as they have been out for about fifty years now. I decided I would not pay attention to anything I saw or read until I had some shooting under my belt and had been through the owner's manual several times. At this point, I'm starting to be able to evaluate the quality of information from various other sources.
Let me say that Mr. Bartholomew Roberts is providing a wealth of credible and interesting data. He's a rare resource

 

[mike240se]

Mr Roberts, I thank you for your amazing insight. It sounds like you hit the nail right on the head, based on my limited knowledge its the only thing that makes sense. If the gas hole was too small or misaligned as i previously thought, the .223 wouldnt work (especially since its less powerful/pressure)

I did call bushmaster today before talking to you, they did not blame the ammo actually ( i didnt really give them the option to, since i had already tested it).
they gave me an rma and said to sent the upper receiver to them via ups. they said the turn around time currently is 7 to 10 days, not bad. I will probably shoot some .223 this weekend (assuming its safe) and will send it out monday. I am betting they will either fix the chamber or replace the barrel. (the chamber is not removalbe from the barrel on these guns i assume?)

I do need to remove the scope, i have the leopold rings, the PRW models. I dont think they are detachable as in quick detach, maybe i should just remove the risers from the gun that the predator comes with? that way as long as i put them back in the same slot on the picatinny rail it should be close to zero.

I am not wanting to send out my favorite gun and be without a centerfire rifle during this beautiful time to shoot but i guess i dont have a choice....

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You're welcome. If it is a chamber problem, I expect they will hit it with a chamber reamer or polish the chamber a bit to correct the problem. The other alternative is to replace the barrel. The chamber is not removable from the barrel; but headspace is set by the barrel extension, so I suppose that might be an option too.

I am not wanting to send out my favorite gun and be without a centerfire rifle during this beautiful time to shoot but i guess i dont have a choice....

That is how I ended up with at least pairs of everything I shoot regularly. If you shoot often enough, stuff just breaks from wear and tear and it is nice to have a spare.

 

[mike240se]

I am having trouble with my sweet 223 bsa scope. Its cloudy as all hell. I know i have to send it back but was thinking of getting a new one.

I was looking at the nikon buckmaster 6.5-18x40mm scope which is onsale $90 off for $260.

or the bsa target 8-32x44mm which is only $115 and has a better zoom which i might need at 300 yards. 18x seems good for 200 yards but i havent tried it at 300 so it might be good enough if its clearer.

Any recommedations?

 

[mike240se]

I ended up ordering the Nikon Buckmaster 6.5-18x40mm BDC Reticle scope. They are refunding my sweet 223 that is totally messed up. Its going to be so nice owning a nikon scope, i am so sick of these cheapo's.