First time experience with a Cap and Ball and what was thought to be a Replica

[Saddlebag Preacher]

I went through a time 25 years ago when I went bust and had to sell all my guns except for a duty weapon. I spent a lot of time outdoors roughing it when I could. My first gun purchase getting back on my feet was a brass framed CVA .44 "navy" to carry in the woods. To be honest, I got pretty good with it and could hit snakes and pests whenever I wanted. I carried and shot that thing enough that all the bluing wore off. After I got back on my feet and retired it for other replicas, I ended up swapping it to an Amish friend for some work he did for me. It's still over his kitchen cabinet, and uses it when he goes BP hunting in case he needs to finish off a deer.

 

[Pocket]

Don't get me wrong, I like that "Navy 44."
I have honed the hammer and have zero problems with the stock nipples and no cap jams. It fits perfect in that black nylon "Gunmate" holster from Walmart.

Yep, I do like that boom and smoke.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

The .36 1858 Navy's being made today are not historically accurate. They are made off the .44 Army frame which is larger the the original 1858 .36 Navy frame. I have an older .36 1868 and it is a smaller framed gun just like the originals were. Put them side by side my .36 1858 is noticeably smaller than my .44 1865. In your hand it feels more like a Colt than a Remington. I also used to have an 1851 .44 which I sold and wish I hadn't of done..

 

[whughett]

I found the reverse to be true. I like shooting Colt clones more than 58 clones.

Yep, more time shooting less time trying to keep that pesky base pin unclogged. Now the ROA and R&S gives you the same as the Remington with out the fouling issues.

 

[Mizar]

It's not THAT hard to add a cylinder bushing to a 1858...

 

[Crawdad1]

Or pull the pin and wipe it off every so often.

 

[TTv2]

The .36 1858 Navy's being made today are not historically accurate. They are made off the .44 Army frame which is larger the the original 1858 .36 Navy frame. I have an older .36 1868 and it is a smaller framed gun just like the originals were. Put them side by side my .36 1858 is noticeably smaller than my .44 1865. In your hand it feels more like a Colt than a Remington. I also used to have an 1851 .44 which I sold and wish I hadn't of done..

Yeah, I really wish Pietta/Uberti would make the smaller frame 1858 for .36 caliber. It's like, Pietta bothered with doing the 1863 Pocket, which I doubt sells as well as the 1858's do and I would bet that a 5 shot .36 1858 that weighed quite a bit less than the .44 1858s would sell pretty well.

I just don't see it ever happening. I've never written to Pietta about making repro New Model Navy or Police revolvers though. Maybe I should. I'll have to brush up on my Italian.

 

[Tommygunn]

The .36 1858 Navy's being made today are not historically accurate. They are made off the .44 Army frame which is larger the the original 1858 .36 Navy frame. I have an older .36 1868 and it is a smaller framed gun just like the originals were. Put them side by side my .36 1858 is noticeably smaller than my .44 1865. In your hand it feels more like a Colt than a Remington. I also used to have an 1851 .44 which I sold and wish I hadn't of done..

This reminds me ....about 1994 I was driving from Connecticut down to my current home state of Alabama, and somewhere....I think in N.E. Tennessee IIRC I stopped at a hotel. The restaurant I dined in that evening had a glass case on the wall in which was an entire collection of genuine 19th century blackpowder cap and ball revolvers from makers we know. There were a number of models I'd never even heard of....cuter, smaller Remingtons. I wish I could have bought some but I was hardly flush with money and needed what I had. And of course I don't even think they were for sale. But it was a fascinating display.

 

[4v50 Gary]

Pocket - why do you think your Colt is not a replica? Curious.

 

[Pocket]

4V50 Gary,

I have searched for days upon days, and can not find an 1851Colt ,Dance, Griswold and others, that made a 44 caliber with a 4-3/4" octagon barrel on the 1851 platform. Yes, somebody somewhere may have made one like it. But that doesn't count unless it can verified.

 

[Mizar]

One cannot simply use the 1851 frame and just put a .44 cylinder in it - there is no space, the whole firing mechanism must be altered, re-engineered, in order to accommodate the new, larger in diameter, cylinder. Hence Colt engineers came up with the idea of the rebated cylinder found in the 1860 Army - it was a clever move, that saved the factory some money for new tools and jigs. Those Confederate and Belgian knock-offs used "reversed engineering" - they simply copied original parts dimensions, because it was the most easiest and profitable way. And if one so much desired, there was already a Colt .44 revolver to copy - the Dragoon model. So I highly doubt that there was ever a 6 shot, .44 cal. 1851 revolver made. But, as I already pointed out, a 5 shot .44 cal. copy was made, but with straight walled (not rebated) cylinder of original diameter.

 

[expat_alaska]

Pocket - why do you think your Colt is not a replica? Curious.

Because it is not.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Pocket - why do you think your Colt is not a replica? Curious.

Because the Colt 1851 Navy was never made in 44 Caliber. Only 36 Caliber.

Pocket: Don't feel too bad, when I bought my first Cap & Ball revolver in 1968 it was an Uberti brass framed 44 caliber copy of the Navy. I bought the brass framed model because it was cheap, and as a teenager that is all I could afford. I had no clue the Navy was never made in 44 caliber, didn't find that out until years later.

I had a lot of fun with this old gun, but eventually too many heavy loads caused the frame to stretch and now it is just a wall hanger.

Nobody was telling us back in 1968 to keep the loads light in a brass framed C&B revolver.

 

[expat_alaska]

DJ:

There is a guy on GB selling/auctioning a similar gun (brass frame, part octagon/part round barrel .44) as a Griswold and Gunnison .44, which never happened historically. I challenged him about the G&G connotation and got a very terse reply from him.

I don't think he will entertain any bids from me in perpetuity.

Pocket: I cruise GB often and try to dissuade sellers from wrongly representing their wares, so that folks like you are not sucked into the fray. I have not met with much success.

I guess, buyer beware. The good folks on this forum are very knowledgeable and will not steer you wrongly.

I am sorry that your pistol is not a replica, but it should be fun to shoot, as many others have pointed out.

Pietta makes a Dance Brothers .44 on a lowered 1851 frame without the rebated cylinder/cut water table. The cylinder is much larger in diameter than their 1851 Navy .36 cylinder, so parts aren't very interchangeable.

That is their creation and not historical. They would have done better and cheaper on their bottom line to just create a Dance .36 (historical) on a standard Pietta 1851 Navy frame and plain cylinder with the recoil shields milled off before the color case finish.

Pocket, here's one that is not a replica but is a product of my imagination. It is a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 with an added squareback trigger guard (in place of the round trigger guard) and a part octagon/part round barrel with a smooth cylinder. You will never see one in a Pietta catalog listing because I created it. I wish Samuel Colt had produced one like this. I call it an 1851 Navy .36 Dragoon.

Fantasy!



Jim

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

Jim - It looks like you are running a smooth cylinder in it rather than an engraved one!?!
A dragoon barrel 1851 is only fantasy until someone finds one in a dusty old attic!!!

I just got a 5.5 inch .31 ASM "dragoon barrel" pocket to keep my 4 inch version company (EMF PER110CHP)
As per our thread on Pocket Pistols, some experts doubt the existence of the originals to these replicas.

Note that the 4 in. from AF (1980) has a smooth cylinder while the 5.5 in. from XX9 (1973) has the Stage Coach Hold Up scene.

I keep finding ASM products like this 1861 Sheriff that may not have existed in the 1800's but should have:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/746468122

David

 

[expat_alaska]

Jim - It looks like you are running a smooth cylinder in it rather than an engraved one!?!
A dragoon barrel 1851 is only fantasy until someone finds one in a dusty old attic!!!

I just got a 5.5 inch .31 ASM "dragoon barrel" pocket to keep my 4 inch version company (EMF PER110CHP)
As per our thread on Pocket Pistols, some experts doubt the existence of the originals to these replicas.

View attachment 777979
Note that the 4 in. from AF (1980) has a smooth cylinder while the 5.5 in. from XX9 (1973) has the Stage Coach Hold Up scene.

I keep finding ASM products like this 1861 Sheriff that may not have existed in the 1800's but should have:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/746468122

David

Those are two beautiful guns! Although I have a hard time handling Pockets and that first picture says it all! And I think Colt produced them but not in many numbers. Just parts.

Man I wish I had one of those! That is one beautiful gun! And the load lever pivot screw is in the correct right side.

 

[bannockburn]

Pocket

I got this Pietta Remington New Model Navy .36 a couple of years ago for Christmas from my wife . She had ordered it from Cabelas when they were on sale. For the money it's a well made revolver and I love the way the shorter barrel balances and handles compared to the longer barrel on the Remington New Model Army .44.

 

[expat_alaska]

If the photo is correct, that is the blackest blue I have ever seen on a Pietta Remmy. And it has a nice high front sight! No turn ring on the cylinder. Wood fit appears good with a possible small frame scuff at the rear of the TG.

My 1851 Navy types have more scars than that.

Although I am not a NMN/NMA fan you have done well, sir!

Thanks for the photo!

Jim

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

I know, I know, that is a long title.
So, my story starts at Cabelas one day and I see this pretty cap and ball revolver for $149.00. I am thinking dang what a deal for a Replica / Historical 1851 Navy "44cal" .

The excitement quicly passed after reading up on this revolver and finding out it is not a replica of anything at all.

However, now owning this "Fake" replica, it peaked my interest even more in these black powder revolvers.

I have quickly learned to read up and research these BEFORE purchasing one.

MY $149.00 Fake replica has turned into 2 additional purchases of some actual replicas.

All is good with my new found hobby.

Love that smoke.

Those 1841 Navy 44 pistols are a "gateway" cap and ball gun...

 

[Pocket]

Those 1841 Navy 44 pistols are a "gateway" cap and ball gun...

Now that is funny but soo true.

Is that sorta like black powder crack?..

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

This reminds me ....about 1994 I was driving from Connecticut down to my current home state of Alabama, and somewhere....I think in N.E. Tennessee IIRC I stopped at a hotel. The restaurant I dined in that evening had a glass case on the wall in which was an entire collection of genuine 19th century blackpowder cap and ball revolvers from makers we know. There were a number of models I'd never even heard of....cuter, smaller Remingtons. I wish I could have bought some but I was hardly flush with money and needed what I had. And of course I don't even think they were for sale. But it was a fascinating display.

Remington had a few lines of C&B & Conversion pistols that were smaller than a 1858 yet larger than an 1863. I wish someone would make replicas of them but I doubt it come to pass. They had one that was just a little larger than an 1863 that had a conventional trigger and trigger guard.

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

I know, I know, that is a long title.
So, my story starts at Cabelas one day and I see this pretty cap and ball revolver for $149.00. I am thinking dang what a deal for a Replica / Historical 1851 Navy "44cal" .

The excitement quicly passed after reading up on this revolver and finding out it is not a replica of anything at all.

However, now owning this "Fake" replica, it peaked my interest even more in these black powder revolvers.

I have quickly learned to read up and research these BEFORE purchasing one.

MY $149.00 Fake replica has turned into 2 additional purchases of some actual replicas.

All is good with my new found hobby.

Love that smoke.

I'm sure you are right there with a lot of people but at least it got you in the fun of the game.

I think it's all well and fine that Cabelas and Pietta want to offer inexpensive cap and ball firearms for those wanting to experience all the fun on a budget or allow them an inexpensive way to get started.

Where I really have the problem is them misleading and flat out lying in the descriptions of these firearms where people buy them thinking they are purchasing a reproduction. I have contacted them and even left those comments in the product feedbacks and they have removed it and contacted me saying "I" don't know what I'm talking about.

If enough people feel like this and would contact them asking them to at "least" be honest in the description of what they are selling it would look a whole lot better for their credibility.

They go so far on the description of the Remington to flat out say due to lack of raw materials the Confederacy was forced to reproduce the Remington with a brass frame. That is not true, it never happened and pretty much the way it's worded you could call it a flat out lie. Yet when I contacted them to explain that and asked them to research it and change their description they basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about. I also left feedback on the certain pistols explaining to people to buy the G&G model if they truly want a more authentic copy of the Confederate brass frame (this was back when Cabelas still offered the G&G). You would think they would have liked that since they charged more for the G&G but they removed my feedback from the feedback section of the pistols.

I buy VERY little at Cabelas anymore simply for the way they responded to me.

 

[Hasaf]

I have to say it, this conversation has me thinking about getting back into black-powder revolver shooting again. Mist of my lit dissapeard in a theft several years ago; but I am looking at Cabella's Pietta 1860 "sheriff" model. I had a pocket police and liked it better than the full length pistols. I think this one hits most of the buttons with a 6-shot cylinder, .44 cal., and the shorter barrel.

However, much like the OP's pistol, it is a replica of nothing ever made.

 

[shiftyer1]

Those have disappeared off Cabela's website, so you might want to grab that before it disappears. I have the feeling they're going to stop carrying those.

I will warn you, once you shoot the '58s, you may never go back to the Colt's. I've gone coocoo for 58's the past year and now I'm looking at getting the Sheriff, Buffalo, and maybe a detachable shoulder stock for them too.

1862 Pockets are probably the one Colt open top percussion revolvers I have a fondness for. Lot of power in such a small package.

I have all three and the shoulder stock.......GO FOR IT!

 

[drobs]

Was looking for a steel frame Pietta 1851 in 36 cal on gunbroker yesterday. Put what I thought was a winning bid on one and then I notice it was in 44. Ooops!
Check this morning and it turns out someone outbid me.

Thank goodness.