"Fixing" LEOPA

[Arizona_Mike]

I'd just as soon scrap LEOPA but I'm wondering if the original intent of protecting police officers in soft body armor from concealable handguns--in theory if not in real life--can be preserved while ending the longstanding abuses (of which the proposed M855/SS109 ban is just the latest).

Can we protect M855, bring back other rifle surplus AP (not just LAP), and bring back hunting solids and match solids with a simple amendment to the law that preserves the original purpose and is not easily demagogued? Something that would not be too radioactive for the political process?

I've been brainstorming on the issue of the blurring of the definition of handgun and rifle in the three decades since the law was passed and my mind has seemed to settle on case length as being a simple way to differentiate traditional handgun rounds from modern intermediate rifle rounds that are available in large but bulky "pistols" that really aren't used by criminals.

You have just about everything traditionally handgun (or newfangled like 5.7x28) up to and including .357 Magnum (33mm) and .44 Magnum (32.6mm) fall below 33 or 34mm case length and every intermediate rifle round I can think up above 33 or 34mm including 300BLK (34.7mm), 6.5 Grendel (38.7mm), 7.62x39, 5.45x39 (actually 40mm), 458 SOCOM (40mm), 6.8 SPC (42.3mm), 5.56x45mm, etc.

What do you guys think?

Mike

PS. I debated putting this in Activism but decided not to as it is more technical/brainstorming as of now, not a proposal to promote.

 

[1911 guy]

How about we just make it illegal to shoot at police officers?

I', not trying to be snarky with you, but I am directing a good deal of it toward the idea that limiting the actions of Person A has anything at all to do with the bad intent of Person B.

You and I are denied access to something because someone else MIGHT use it to commit a crime.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Covered that in my first 2 paragraphs and it happened 30 years ago.

Mike

 

[Jim Watson]

How about just having the government obey the law?
M855 does not meet the material of construction definition of handgun armor piercing.

 

[GAF]

Then I suspect that a crossbow pistol with a bolt that has a razor broad head could also be considered armor piercing with the BATF`s new interpretation of the rules.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

How about just having the government obey the law?
M855 does not meet the material of construction definition of handgun armor piercing.

As I have pointed out in other threads. But I want to bring back match bronze solids, dangerous game solids, and real rifle AP that do meet the statutory language. Fixing the blurred definition of a handgun cartridge solves those as well.

Mike

 

[jerkface11]

The handgun definition is pretty dang clear.

 

[hso]

We need an amendment to LEOPA specifically exempting all rifle ammunition.

 

[Jim Watson]

But what is "rifle ammunition?"
You can get a TC Encore pistol clear up to .30-06.

 

[Ankeny]

The handgun definition is pretty dang clear.

SEC. 10. For purposes of section 921(aX17XB) of title 18, United States Code, as added by the first section of this Act, "handgun" means any firearm including a pistol or revolver designed to be fired by the use of a single hand. The term also includes any combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.

Definition of armor piercing:

"(B) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other sub-stances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.

In theory, the big change is the proliferation of AR15 pistols. Of course we all know the vast majority of 5.56 "armor piercing" ammo goes up in smoke on ranges by recreational shooters for sporting purposes. Just wondering how many center fire cartridges are available for single shot pistols? I wonder when some clown will go after all ammo of monolithic construction in any cartridge available in any handgun?

I see Jim Watson beat me to it.

 

[buck460XVR]

SEC. 10. For purposes of section 921(aX17XB) of title 18, United States Code, as added by the first section of this Act, "handgun" means any firearm including a pistol or revolver designed to be fired by the use of a single hand. The term also includes any combination of parts from which a handgun can be assembled.

Definition of armor piercing:

"(B) The term 'armor piercing ammunition' means a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other sub-stances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.

I think we need this posted a few thousand times more on the internet just in case there is a chance there may one person out there with the slightest interest in firearms that hasn't seen it.


Ain't trying to be a smart hind end, but that paragraph has been posted so many times on so many forums that most of us could recite it from memory. It does not change the interpretation the ATF has on it. Just like the continued posting of the Second Amendment on gun forums with the word infringed highlighted, is not going to have much effect on how the SCOTUS interprets it. As the OP has stated, M855 was determined by the ATF to meet the criteria for AP ammo 30 years ago, back when Ronald Reagan was President. It has not changed that criteria or it's interpretation, only determined that there are now semi-auto handguns chambered for it. It was always banned in those, only has an exemption because the only platform it had back when the law was enacted, was in rifle or single shot handgun. Single shot handguns in rifle calibers are determined to be used mostly for sporting purposes, thus are not a target of the LOEPA.


The original intent of the LEOPA was thought to be at the time, a noble gesture to protect our LEOs in the future from BGs with semi and fully auto handguns firing ammo that easily pierced their soft body armor. This is still the intent of the law and the only thing that has changed is the inception of semi-auto handguns that shoot AP rifle rounds. The concern really is not the banning of a mediocre surplus rifle round, but the fear of where it will end. Folks should have been concerned 30 years ago when M855 was first designated as AP by the Feds, instead of waiting till the wolf was at the door.

 

[1911 guy]

That's the thing. On one hand, they want to define it as "commonly used in a handgun." This supposedly exempts the large game cartridges available in the Contender, Encore, XP-100 and all other handguns suitable for taking game. Makes the population feel good. But then they turn around and ban M855, when all of us here know that AR handguns are a small number of AR type firearms.

I would venture to say that if you picked a caliber, say 7mm-08, and compared it to the 5.56mm, you'd have roughly the same ratio of handguns to rifles.

So what's the REAL reason for suddenly rescinding the oh, so generous, exemption?

Arizona_Mike laid out a workable definition in the O.P. The problem is, we're debating technicalities, semantics and rhetoric while they are operating from an agenda.

 

[Malamute]

I believe the wording of the original proponents of the law specifically stated they didnt intend for the law to apply to any rifle cartridge, meaning any cartridge originally and predominately used in rifles, even if it were chambered in a handgun.

Even the anti-gun leaning originators of the law understood that soft body armor wasnt designed or intended to stop rifle cartridges, and specifically intended to exempt all true rifle cartridges regardless of construction. That seems to have been lost long the way somehow.

The entire law was built on phony balony smoke and mirrors. Some busy body found out that armor piercing handgun ammo existed, and that cops wore soft body armor. The makers of such ammo restricted sales of it to law enforcement and other govt type agancies. It was not by any stretch of the imagination common or easy to get. The busy bodies and press called it "cop killer" ammo, got a lot of sympathy for a non-existant issue and passed a law. They created their own issue pretty much out of thin air, then proceded to save the world. Brilliant.

 

[Thermactor]

according to the BATFE an AR15 is a handgun.

therefore,

a handgun is a gun that you can hold in your hands.

 

[Malamute]

Where do they say any AR 15 is a handgun?


I dont think the attempt to discern measurements for handgun VS rifle cartridges per OP is productive or relevant. We already have definitions of rifles and handguns. The origin of all the cartridges mentioned is not at issue. The original wording of the law should be sufficient. Cartridges originally intended for and predominately used in rifles shouldnt be affected by the LEOPA ban, even when said rifle cartridges are chambered in handguns.

Despite some comments, what is or is not a handgun is clearly established in law. Redesigning a rifle into a legal handgun configuration doesnt make other legal rifles into handguns. Somebody making a true handgun in a rifle cartridge shouldnt affect any use of the rifle cartridge. Theres a new, small, one or two shooter pistol being made in 223, as was I believe a 2 shot derringer (American Derringer?) at some point in the past. That doesnt make a rifle cartridge into a handgun cartridge. It was originally designed and intended as a rifle cartridge. By the intent of the originators of the law, the LEOPA law shouldnt have any bearing on the cartridge classification. The only "fixing" the Leopa law needs other then being thrown out for being a red herring is to simply follow the intent of the originators of the law.

 

[Thermactor]

I said AN AR-15 is a handgun. It's become, to them, a common handgun platform, thereby necessitating the removal of m855 from their exemption list.

 

[Malamute]

I said AN AR-15 is a handgun. It's become, to them, a common handgun platform, thereby necessitating the removal of m855 from their exemption list.

Your previous comment

according to the BATFE an AR15 is a handgun.

therefore,

a handgun is a gun that you can hold in your hands.

indicated that the definition of a handgun was any gun that can be held in the hands. That isnt how the law reads.

Saying AN AR 15, and the way it was stated, doesnt differentiate one from another (AR handgun from AR rifle), it implies all are without any clarification.

I agree their rational is based on the AR handguns becoming common, but that wasnt how it was stated or implied in the comment.

 

[Thermactor]

My hand-held gun comment was meant to be outrageously sarcastic and over the top ironic since you could hold a GE minigun in your hands if you wanted to. I meant to express frustration with the brazen new leaf the Agency has turned.


Clearly, the ATF has flouted the intent of the LEOPA and the GCA since no AR-15 pistol could rightfully be considered a concealable weapon and a hidden danger to public servant safety.

 

[Ankeny]

It has not changed that criteria or it's interpretation, only determined that there are now semi-auto handguns chambered for it. It was always banned in those, only has an exemption because the only platform it had back when the law was enacted, was in rifle or single shot handgun.

...and there we have it.

 

[jerkface11]

M855 doesn't fit the definition of armor piercing according to the law.

 

[Tirod]

M855 is interpreted to be armor piercing by the ATF under LEOPA. They are the ones delegated by Congress to decide it, make regulations about it, and keep Congress clear of any entanglements over it.

Congress does not want to deal with the issues of demolishing our 2A rights or supporting "cop killer" bullets. They already have problems and can barely pass an Homeland Security finance bill.

 

[AR15activist]

Let's address the problems that lead to violence against police officers, like failed social policies, economic atrophy and having them do jobs that are inappropriate for their stated purposes.

AP handgun ammo should be legal.

 

[scottsvillesol]

Could we not re-classify AR/AK "pistols" as something other than pistols. Say we make a new class of firearm, let's call it "stockless rifle" and define it as a firearm built off a rifle receiver with a barrel length less than 16" and no stock. Then the ammunition in question is no longer handgun ammunition.

 

[Skribs]

Gun laws "protecting" cops are dumber than those "protecting" civilians. Someone shooting at a cop is already willing to violate laws, amd is usually doing so after breaking other laws. They will be willing to get this ammo on the black market.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

While I was still on the job, I don't know of any of my fellow officers worried about Armor Piercing rounds. Heck, I started long before there WAS body armor. But even after adopting it, it still wasn't a concern. In fact, whether it was true or not, we were always told an ice pick could pierce it anyway. So we worried about ice picks.