FL Gov DeSantis proposes "anti-mob" extension to "Stand Your Ground"

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wiscoaster

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Florida Governor Ron DeSantis has proposed extending the state's "Stand Your Ground" to allow armed citizens to use lethal force against looters and violent protestors. Any number of news outlets are reporting and easily found by googling; I share the top link here:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...citizens-shoot-suspected-looters-rioters.html

My first reactions are mixed. Please share your opinions and comments.
 
Sounds like the proverbial "can of worms". I do not have any love for folks that loot or vandalize the private property of others during what are otherwise "non-violent" protests. But I think telling folks they can shoot "suspected" looters and disruptors, is asking for a lot of innocent folks to end up in harms way.
 
The draft I've seen says nothing about shooting anyone.
Please post link to draft? Couldn't find it. Governor can't submit draft of new legislation. Has actual legislation been introduced to FL legislature or is he just proposing? Who sponsored? More detail needed. Thanks...
 
My first personal reaction: "stand you ground" is one thing. Legalizing lethal force against any other human that's not threatening other human life is going too far. And whether or not it's morally defensible, the courts will never buy it anyway.
 
I know here in FL, the NG has authority to shoot looters during emergencies like hurricanes; this seems to be somewhat of an extension of that. The old "You Loot, We Shoot" mantra and if I am a business man or homeowner under attack by mobs of communist/antifa-types, that is what I would be considering.
 
My first personal reaction: "stand you ground" is one thing. Legalizing lethal force against any other human that's not threatening other human life is going too far. And whether or not it's morally defensible, the courts will never buy it anyway.


In a sense I agree with what you've said. IMHO the "devil is in the details" -- or may be. Looters and rioters may through their actions, threaten individuals with mortal danger, or threaten it. If the law is written in a way that allows for a greater range of self defense use of deadly force, then I could support it.
But if it just says "PEOPLE CAN SHOOT LOOTERS AND RIOTERS JUST 'CUZ", then, no, I would not support that.

And I don't currently know enough to really know.:thumbdown:
 
I know here in FL, the NG has authority to shoot looters during emergencies like hurricanes; this seems to be somewhat of an extension of that. The old "You Loot, We Shoot" mantra and if I am a business man or homeowner under attack by mobs of communist/antifa-types, that is what I would be considering.

From what I understand, homeowners currently have a right to defend their home if threaded by a riot. This proposal would extend that right to business owners.

Although you can protect your home currently with lethal force if rioters try to break in you cannot use lethal force to protect property. So if you see someone breaking into your car or business you currently cannot use lethal force to protect it
 
If I am being threatened with death in my home, in my car, in my place of business or while walking down the street then I'm being threatened with death. It doesn't matter if the threat is burning, beating or shooting, I feel that I should have the right to defend myself... .
....And that is the basic principle of a self-defense shooting. The way various jurisdictions incorporate this into their laws will vary by said jurisdiction, so in the end one can only be best advised to know their local laws regarding the use of deadly force.
 
On the face of it, it doesn't sound like this proposal really has much if anything to do with self defense. Lethal use of force to defend someone else's property -- I dunno. Can't go along with that. Leave that to National Guard or law enforcement when the state's governor orders "shoot-to-kill" looters authority during declared emergencies.
 
From what I understand, homeowners currently have a right to defend their home if threaded by a riot.
Nope.

On the face of it, it doesn't sound like this proposal really has much if anything to do with self defense.
If you are referring to the DailyMail article, it doesn't.

I've seen a draft of the proposal. It has nothing to do with they justification of the use of deadly force.

People probably are upset--it raises penalties for throwing rocks, etc.
 
On the face of it, it doesn't sound like this proposal really has much if anything to do with self defense. Lethal use of force to defend someone else's property -- I dunno. Can't go along with that. Leave that to National Guard or law enforcement when the state's governor orders "shoot-to-kill" looters authority during declared emergencies.
I think the bold is the rub. That's the way it's supposed to be and why we pay for those services.

Unfortunately, We are seeing peoples life's work/properties destroyed and the national guard/LE are not stopping it.

At some point, you are going to see citizens defending their businesses/property.

The LA riots are still a stark example of citizens doing just that. LE had abandoned the city to burn. Some citizens did not accept the burning/looting and, for their community, prevented it.

I really don't know about this 'law' or policy that being discussed as I have not seen the actual draft or anything yet.

I really really do not want to see anyone shot/killed/injured over property, but I do recognize that at some point, people legally or illegally are going to defend their businesses/property.
 
This is speculation as I haven’t seen the actual language, but if it is a proposed change to the Stand Your Ground provision, I bet all that would be actually happening is shifting a burden of proof a little bit in the defender’s favor.

Despite what media would have people believe, Stand Your Ground laws do not create a free fire zone around someone with a gun. The general requirements to use lethal force are not changed, the defender just has a presumption that he does not have to first retreat in order to make his use of force legal (I’m oversimplifying a bit).

Likewise, I suspect that this new wording will probably amount to adding language that codifies in a certain situation like a riot, disparity of force of rioters vs a lone defender is already assumed to be in play and does not have to be raised separately.

That would hopefully help store owners and residents who get caught up in this stuff from being prosecuted and having to pay a six figure legal bill to prove their innocence. I’m still fairly confident that even if this does pass, it would not make it legal to get 6 guys in the bed of a pickup truck shooting every rioter they see.

But that doesn’t draw headlines, score political points for the governor, or make potential rioters/looters think twice before acting.
 
If I'm reading this correctly, all it does is amend the Stand Your Ground law to include the text in bold letters. I'm not seeing how this is a license to shoot looters.

Stand Your Ground Amendments
776.08 Forcible felony.
. . . device or bomb; looting; criminal mischief that results in the interruption or impairment of a business operation; arson that results in the interruption or impairment of a business operation; and any other felony . . . .
 
My take is that the text makes those a felony; I don't know what the level is currently; misdemeanor for a couple of them maybe, except arson is already a felony, isn't it? I don't think it gives legal license to shoot. Unless ... an extension of stand your ground to cover those "forcible felony" activities when they're directed against your property when you're physically present in your property? (eg McCloskeys) Or just more misrepresentation by the news media?
 
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^ "anti mob" and stand your ground ^ ... good for agitating those that dislike such at the minimum.

Way to go FL !
 
The Miami Herald was apparently the origin of the news that other outlets picked up on; here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article247094007.html
A horrible excuse for journalism.

This is speculation as I haven’t seen the actual language, but if it is a proposed change to the Stand Your Ground provision...

I don't think us is. It is called "Combating Violence, Disorder and Looting and Law Enforcement Protection Act."

Florida's law on defensive use of force is colloquially (and erroneously) called "Stand Your Ground". That's because it was enacted at the same time that the duty to retreat was eliminated.

I'm not seeing how this is a license to shoot looters.
It isn't.
 
I think a lot of people seem to maybe not understand that there's a major difference between shooting someone for stealing your prized pony and someone jeopardizing your livelihood by destroying your business. That said, if a group destroys a business in which you've taken out hundreds and thousands of dollars in debt to build, it's very likely you'll never recover from it financially. In many cases, insurance against insurrection or riots doesn't exist, which is frequently a major reason why regions that have a tendency to experience largescale riots with semi-frequency are impoverished in the first place.

You've also got to realize how quickly these situations can escalate from looting to violence.

Add on top of this that the business in question often has no way of predicting when these riots will happen or what will start them, I personally believe the use of lethal force is justified. I'm not sure how many riots you guys have been through or the general feelings about law enforcement around these parts, but I've seen so much patience and caution exercised on behalf of our police that it's basically reached a point where it's putting them at risk of life and limb. I do believe some of the more recent deaths at the hands of police have been inexcusable, but that's certainly not representative of all folks in uniform and absolutely not a justification for riot.

I've seen antifa throw bricks through bank windows because "banks are fascist."
We recently saw a Wendy's burned to the ground because they called the police on someone for loitering drunk in their parking lot and "that's racist."
Most recently, we saw local governments warning folks in the suburbs to barricade themselves inside and beware of rioters throwing rocks through the windows of their houses.

The list is endless. We've also got to discuss that a fire started in a business can jeopardize the lives of basically everybody in the immediate vicinity (which rioters often do). There's always a lot of posturing on firearms forums about "If they do that here, I'd shoot'em!" Guess what? Everybody is Billy Badass behind a keyboard, but shooting someone is a legal nightmare even if you're 100% justified. Even in cases with textbook demonstrable circumstances and objective video evidence, the shooter often spends time in jail. That doesn't even include younger shooters who may carry a stigma for the rest of their lives. A large part of this is because the laws haven't kept up with how politicized everything has become and originally assumed a certain degree of objectivity among the population. That doesn't really exist anymore, and laws like this might be the life-raft you need when this bullcrap ends up happening in your little town.


Like most folks here said already, the devil is in the details. I think we at THR are all on the same page that being firearms enthusiasts does not mean we're in a rush to shoot somebody. At the same rate, I'm personally exhausted with people pandering to criminals that tear apart neighborhoods and businesses. We already saw political campaigns bailing rioters out of jail and major institutions morally grandstanding as if their destruction is justified. I think this law could be the start of something very beneficial for regular law abiding people who are just trying to survive and provide for their families.
 
I think a lot of people seem to maybe not understand that there's a major difference between shooting someone for stealing your prized pony and someone jeopardizing your livelihood by destroying your business.
There are differences in effect, but not in law.

shooting someone is a legal nightmare even if you're 100% justified.
And even then. But that's not on topic here.

..laws like this might be the life-raft you need when this bullcrap ends up happening in your little town.
This law, as proposed, addresses the criminal code as it applies to riots, disorder, and "protests"--nothing more.

I think this law could be the start of something very beneficial for regular law abiding people who are just trying to survive and provide for their families.
I like the law, but it does not affect citizens directly.
 
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