I'm a beginner looking for a reliable flintlock for hunting (a simple unembelished rifle) that has more of a Kentucky feel to it. I've been reading the interwebz reviews and it seems that half of the users say that the Pedersoli/Lyman/Traditions are junk or need a medium amount of work to get going and that custom is the only way to go. I'm gonna be honest and say that I'm not taking a $2500 rifle up in to the mountains to shoot an elk. With a budget of about 1k for the rifle/bp/accessories what would be a decent and reliable rifle to look at?
Flintlock confusion.....
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ROAshooter
member
have you visited "Track of the Wolf" website.....I have bought a used bp from them...was very satisfied with the sevice
arcticap
Member
TVM (Tennessee Valley Muzzle Loading) has an outstanding reputation for building good quality guns and just may be the best bang for the buck:
http://www.avsia.com/tvm/
http://www.avsia.com/tvm/
I don't know what is so bad about Lyman rifles. I have built up 2 of their kits in flint and they worked just fine. I eventually upgraded them with L&R locks and Davis triggers but it wasn't because they were unreliable. Just liked the looks. However, they are not Kentucky type rifles. The GPR is more along the line of the Hawken type rifles.
arcticap
Member
I wouldn't invest money in an expensive kit without having had some kind of previous experience building a flintlock rifle. If there ends up being some disappointment then there's no one else to blame and a little mistake could end up being very costly.
If the price of a finished TVA rifle is a concern then I would consider starting somewhere else, either a used rifle or another company.
Talk to Ray Franks at Sitting Fox. He sells kits but will also finish a gun to order for a reasonable price.
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/intro.php
If the price of a finished TVA rifle is a concern then I would consider starting somewhere else, either a used rifle or another company.
Talk to Ray Franks at Sitting Fox. He sells kits but will also finish a gun to order for a reasonable price.
http://www.sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/intro.php
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St8LineGunsmith
Member.
Pedersoli, Lyman and Traditions are not junk they are just factory reproductions specifically manufactured for the hunter wants to hunt during muzzloader season who wants the feel and experience of using a traditional style flint lock without having to dish out the big bucks to commission a traditonal long rifle builder the big bucks,
you can get one and have it sighted in and shooting good groups right out of the box.
the guys saying they are junk are the elitist traditionalist who only shoot a reproduction of traditional school long rifle.
if you dont have any experience building Long rifles then you might want to get one of the ones mentioned. Traditions is a very good rifle but itis not a reproduction of any particular school.
the Kentucky rifle, Virginia rifle are all descendant from the Pennsylvania rifle makers apprentices who kind of migrated south and set up shop along the way and taking on other apprentices to teach the craft to and so on. the carvings, engraving and embellishments were just as much an intricate part of these rifles as the functioning mechanisms and was and still is how the traditional long rifles are identified from which school the rifle is from
just a brief history if you might be interested.
but anyway most of these kits are not as simple as the old CVA kits which most of the work was already done these kits require a lot of research (because they don't come with instructions) and a basic knowledge of wood work and metal working skills In other words it will take more than a screwdriver set to build one of these kits.
and most of the easy to build kits like the ones traditions offer are no less in price than one already assembled
you can get one and have it sighted in and shooting good groups right out of the box.
the guys saying they are junk are the elitist traditionalist who only shoot a reproduction of traditional school long rifle.
if you dont have any experience building Long rifles then you might want to get one of the ones mentioned. Traditions is a very good rifle but itis not a reproduction of any particular school.
the Kentucky rifle, Virginia rifle are all descendant from the Pennsylvania rifle makers apprentices who kind of migrated south and set up shop along the way and taking on other apprentices to teach the craft to and so on. the carvings, engraving and embellishments were just as much an intricate part of these rifles as the functioning mechanisms and was and still is how the traditional long rifles are identified from which school the rifle is from
just a brief history if you might be interested.
but anyway most of these kits are not as simple as the old CVA kits which most of the work was already done these kits require a lot of research (because they don't come with instructions) and a basic knowledge of wood work and metal working skills In other words it will take more than a screwdriver set to build one of these kits.
and most of the easy to build kits like the ones traditions offer are no less in price than one already assembled
eastbank
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BCRider
Member
If the gun was built from a kit I suppose there is always some room for concern over how well it was fitted. The guys in the black powder group at my club tell me that my Lyman Great Plains Rifle was built from a kit since it's browned rather than blued. They also confirmed that it was very well built and looks ever inch like a custom made gun.
As for accuracy I am more than happy with it. But I should add that my eyes at best manage to produce 4 inch groups at 100 yards with plain iron sights with ANY gun of any age. The GPR flinter I've got easily produces this size of grouping. Which leads me to suspect that if I were to install some sights which are non period correct to aid my vision that it would make little golf ball size groups at 100.
I've not seen, handled or shot any Traditions gun so I can't comment on those. As for Pedersoli all their guns I've seen were nicely made and fitted and seemed up to the job. That isn't to say that these guns would not benefit from some trigger or action tweaks. But out of the box they likely shoot just fine.
On the other hand a low cost Chiappa/Armi Sport flinter I got is total junk. The lock is a toy which I'll need to replace if I want to shoot it. I did get a few shots from it before the teeny tiny locating tab on the mainspring snapped. But in looking it over they took way too many shortcuts and made basic mistakes on the lock design and crafting.
So where are these comments coming from? The custom made guns I've seen are definetly up a few rungs on the quality ladder. So by comparison I guess I can see where some folks used to those guns would say that the run of the mill flinters from Pedersoli, Lyman or Traditions needs a little of this or that. But that does not make them any less capable of use for hunting. At least not as I see it with my Lyman GPR sitting in my lap.
So I would take what some of the internet experts say about these firearms with a healthy dose of salt. You simply do not need to spend north of a grand to get a good shooting and reliable flinter for your case based on how you say you want to use the gun.
The only thing I'll say about the Hawken style GPR is that they are darn heavy what with that big slug of a barrel. At 11.6 lbs, according to their web site, it's not the sort of gun I'd want to pack around the bush for hours at a time.
As for accuracy I am more than happy with it. But I should add that my eyes at best manage to produce 4 inch groups at 100 yards with plain iron sights with ANY gun of any age. The GPR flinter I've got easily produces this size of grouping. Which leads me to suspect that if I were to install some sights which are non period correct to aid my vision that it would make little golf ball size groups at 100.
I've not seen, handled or shot any Traditions gun so I can't comment on those. As for Pedersoli all their guns I've seen were nicely made and fitted and seemed up to the job. That isn't to say that these guns would not benefit from some trigger or action tweaks. But out of the box they likely shoot just fine.
On the other hand a low cost Chiappa/Armi Sport flinter I got is total junk. The lock is a toy which I'll need to replace if I want to shoot it. I did get a few shots from it before the teeny tiny locating tab on the mainspring snapped. But in looking it over they took way too many shortcuts and made basic mistakes on the lock design and crafting.
So where are these comments coming from? The custom made guns I've seen are definetly up a few rungs on the quality ladder. So by comparison I guess I can see where some folks used to those guns would say that the run of the mill flinters from Pedersoli, Lyman or Traditions needs a little of this or that. But that does not make them any less capable of use for hunting. At least not as I see it with my Lyman GPR sitting in my lap.
So I would take what some of the internet experts say about these firearms with a healthy dose of salt. You simply do not need to spend north of a grand to get a good shooting and reliable flinter for your case based on how you say you want to use the gun.
The only thing I'll say about the Hawken style GPR is that they are darn heavy what with that big slug of a barrel. At 11.6 lbs, according to their web site, it's not the sort of gun I'd want to pack around the bush for hours at a time.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Lymans are garbage, you don't want one (3-shots@70yds).
Seriously, they are excellent rifles for the money. My GPR .54 pictured above is a tackdriver and the Trade Rifle is a wonderful value. Pedersoli is a step up in quality and some have more traditional browned finishes. I've been drooling over their Rocky Mountain Hawken for a few years. No, they might not be the most perfectly period correct and there are a lot of snobs in the traditional blackpowder world but those mentioned are perfectly serviceable rifles and look "good enough" for most of us. Which is not to say that I don't plan on having TVM build me a Lancaster in the near future. They're only 30mins away for crying out loud!
But yes, there are even purists who look down their noses at TVM. You can't please everybody.
Seriously, they are excellent rifles for the money. My GPR .54 pictured above is a tackdriver and the Trade Rifle is a wonderful value. Pedersoli is a step up in quality and some have more traditional browned finishes. I've been drooling over their Rocky Mountain Hawken for a few years. No, they might not be the most perfectly period correct and there are a lot of snobs in the traditional blackpowder world but those mentioned are perfectly serviceable rifles and look "good enough" for most of us. Which is not to say that I don't plan on having TVM build me a Lancaster in the near future. They're only 30mins away for crying out loud!
But yes, there are even purists who look down their noses at TVM. You can't please everybody.
loose noose
Member
I'm still in the process of building a Lyman GPR Flintlock, finally managed to get the browning process out of the way and it really came out looking great. With the heat and humitity, we've had out here lately it's no wonder. I also just finished the stock after installing a patchbox, Jim West could tell ya about that. Now I just have to wait until the finish dries sufficiently so I can put it together. Also I need some cool weather to take it out and do some serious shooting with it (get it sighted in). I plan on using it in the fall of this year for BP only hunting in the UP of Michigan hopefully I'll be able to get a Whitetail with it. Note about 10-15 years ago I built a Lancaster .32 flintlock (squirrel gun) with most of the parts from Pedersoli, and that thing has never failed to go off, and it will put 3 rounds nearly touching at 35 yards. Never had a problem with Lyman or Pedersoli but of course I never owned a Traditions BP arm.
St8LineGunsmith
Member.
What rust bluing did you use?
Have you tried that laurel Mountain barrel brown and rust blueing and degreaser?Man that stuff is the hind tit for slow rust bluing and all I will use from now on
I am currently installing a patchbox and push rod for the latch on a Virginia long rifle (Klette school) almost have the door and finial filed and sanded smooth. trying to get everything inletted and inlays out of the way to start on the relief carving and engraving.
got quite a ways to go before any metal gets blued or furniture finished
where did you hear this? I would like to see a source on that. leaded steel is not safe even on a BP rifle
all the custom builders who I know who make their own barrels use either 1018 or 1026 low carbon mild steel which neither grade contains lead.
loose noose -
Be aware that new Lyman barrels require some 'break-in'. It won't group well until it's fired about a hundred rounds. Either that or some 'polishing' of the lands with some super fine steel wool (gently - you can do more harm than good).
Don't get discouraged if it won't group the first few rounds - adjusting sights during this early period is fruitless, unless the sights are a long way off. Once it gets past that hundred round mark, however, it'll be a tack driver.
Be aware that new Lyman barrels require some 'break-in'. It won't group well until it's fired about a hundred rounds. Either that or some 'polishing' of the lands with some super fine steel wool (gently - you can do more harm than good).
Don't get discouraged if it won't group the first few rounds - adjusting sights during this early period is fruitless, unless the sights are a long way off. Once it gets past that hundred round mark, however, it'll be a tack driver.
loose noose
Member
St8, I did use the Laurel Mountain Forge Browning solution, it worked really well on the barrel and all the furniture except for the toe. I had to do that at least 10-12 times before it came out to my satisfaction. I'm not sure if it was a harder steel than the rest of the furniture or what. Any way I'll be putting up some photos of the finished product here before too long. BTW I used the laurelmountainforge.com/barrel_brown_inst.htm It really tells how to, and I followed the instructions to the T.
St8LineGunsmith
Member.
ya the laurel mountain barrel blue dont work on non ferrous metals. if you were using it on bronze or brass then it probaly didn't take too good.
it sure works good on the barrel, lock parts and trigger group tho
it sure works good on the barrel, lock parts and trigger group tho
George757
Member
+1 for the Pedersoli Blue Ridge flinter. It's a Kentucky style, shoots straight, and Cabela's has 'em on sale for $629 (fits your budget). It doesn't come with a flint, so you'll need to buy that, and other accessories, separately.
BullRunBear
Member
Can't speak to Pedersoli and my experience with Traditions is 20-plus years out of date. But the GPR should meet your needs for reliable hunting. It isn't a Kentucky style and it certainly isn't fancy. New, factory made, versions can be had for between 500 and 600 bucks. Upgrading the lock and trigger wouldn't hurt but really isn't necessary for good function.
I did slightly enlarge the vent liner hole and make sure I use good flints, either those from Rich Pierce (my preference) or the black English flints from TOTW. Both are excellent.
Good luck with your search.
Jeff
I did slightly enlarge the vent liner hole and make sure I use good flints, either those from Rich Pierce (my preference) or the black English flints from TOTW. Both are excellent.
Good luck with your search.
Jeff
I've got the Pedersoli Blue Ridge Rifle (bought back in the mid 90's) and have been happy with it. It's accurate and reliable. I did drill out the vent hole slightly, and there's a learning curve on keeping flints sharp (use real flints) and loading consistently, but I've had no trouble with it once you figure out the details. I think it's a good way to get into a flintlock, then you'll know what to look for if you ever want to upgrade.
Loyalist Dave
Member
I shoot a custom long rifle, and have owned several over-the-counter flinters and caplocks as well..., I still own them.
While there are some critical cosmetic problems with some of the OTC guns..., the question when shooting or hunting is whether or not they will hit where they are aimed and do it reliably well. The Lyman GPR is not junk, either to the eye or when shooting. Lyman has probably the best OTC street rep for shooting and hunting and cosmetic apearance, if you like plains-style rifles.
All of the Lyman caplock rifles have large groups of satisfied customers. The Pedersoli "frontier" aka the Blue Ridge Hunter also has a good hunting and shooting rep, but is second to the Lyman as the Pedersoli works the best with a thin blade, after market, front sight post. Some folks have reported minor ignition problems due to the "patent breech" system that Pedersoli employs on this rifle. The Pedersoli Jaeger is a good rifle, but again swap out the front sight post for a thinner type. Pedersoli's "trade gun" is also a good shooting, smooth bore gun.
The Thompson Center caplock traditional rifles also shoot well, and many may be found used in pawn shops or online. I don't like the lock on the flintlock TC rifles, but many folks do well with them. The sights are modern style so many folks poo-poo that as well.
I have had a bad experience with the Traditions flintlock long rifle..., the lock I found to be small, and weakly made in the rifle that I had, and I will not consider another.
LD
Cosmoline
Member
I agree they are not junk, and should work fine. Sometimes the locks aren't good sparkers in the cheaper factory flinters, but it's not too tough to get a high quality lock from Track or elsewhere and pop it in there with some smithing. It's also pretty easy to put in a better barrel or a white lighting liner to zip ignition a bit.
Overall I think you can get a very good flintlock rifle for reasonable price if you're not worried about authenticity too much. Smoothbores are a bit trickier, because we enter the controversial subject of Indian guns.
Overall I think you can get a very good flintlock rifle for reasonable price if you're not worried about authenticity too much. Smoothbores are a bit trickier, because we enter the controversial subject of Indian guns.
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