Flow of guns to the wrong hands

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

The Unknown User

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2007
Messages
712
I recently wrote a paper for an American politics class at my university on gun control, but one issue I realized I never really looked into how guns ultimately get into the wrong hands.

One of gun control's main points is that it aims to reduce the number of guns in the wrong hands. Obviously this doesn't make much sense, as criminals, by definition, don't obtain their guns legally.

So how do they get them then?

My first guess is that they're stolen from people who obtained them legally to start with. So effectively gun control aims to deprive the civilian population of the means to defend themselves against robbers so that said robbers can't take their guns.

Then I started thinking about how guns come to exist. They're made in a factory somewhere, presumably legally, then sold to governments, military personnel, and civilians. I can't really see a gun company illegally selling guns to criminals, so I end up back at the idea of criminals stealing them from people who obtained them legally.

Thoughts?
 
I agree. :)

(I hate to sound "anti" here, but bear with me.) I think the biggest "problem" with guns is when they end up in the hands of murderers, rapists, and robbers. Gun control obviously doesn't fix this, as criminals, by definition, don't follow the laws, so laws, inherently, can't change that.

So, I think attacking the source(s) of where criminals get their guns is more important than making laws that effectively do nothing other than make the general population feel safer.

AWB '86 anyone?
 
Anyone that listens to Jesse Jackson can tell you what the problem is. Black people can't be trusted with guns so we should take guns away from them.:rolleyes: Then they will stop shooting each other up because we all know that a black man with a gun can't be trusted to not shoot someone else with it. :barf: I think it would serve the black community well to can this guy before he starts a black wing of the KKK, if he hasn't already.
 
So, I think attacking the source(s) of where criminals get their guns is more important than making laws that effectively do nothing other than make the general population feel safer.
Click to expand...

Death sentence for anyone stealing a gun anyone?
Harsh, real punishment for criminals?
Death sentences for repeat offenders?

It's not the tool used, it's the human element, no matter how you work the logic.

Stop the behavior, not the type of tool chosen for the crime.
 
Death for a nonviolent theft is a little harsh methinks, five years hard labor sounds about right. I think murder, rape and the attempts of those crimes are the only ones that deserve death.
 
That is a very good question, and is really the main question that should be addressed anytime any gun control measure is brought up or analyzed. Obviously, it is almost never addressed, and I'm not entirely sure why.

I don't have any stats, but I'll use good ol' logic to take a stab at it. I would guess that the #1 method criminals use to get guns is the black market. I know, that doesn't address how the guns get on the black market in the first place, but it does go directly to the availability of guns to criminals. IMHO, there are already so many guns on the black market that even if new gun manufacturing were to stop completely, 100% all over the world, we would see NO appreciable reduction in criminal ability to obtained firearms or illegal firearms ownership. In essence, I think that while we should not ignore the means by which criminals obtain guns, the issue is essentially moot.

The other major method would be the purposeful selling of guns onto the black market. Straw purchases, illegal gun sales (private or otherwise), all put guns into criminals' hands, and onto the black market. This can and does happen in the US, though I'm sure it happens on a much larger scale in 3rd world countries. Didn't a huge shipment of arms that we sent to Iraq go missing, for example? (sorry, I don't have a link, I'm going off of memory) Any war zone or unstable area with armed rebels is also a major source. Rebels may steal guns, use them or sell them, or may be given them outright by gov'ts that support them. Those guns have then just entered the black market.

Theft of lawfully owned guns is another area, though I'd wager it is probably the smallest, at least on a global scale. For one thing, most countries don't have all that many legally owned guns (from what I gather), so theft in the US is probably the the largest source for this mechanism. Technically, yes, eliminating legally owned guns would eliminate this as a way for criminals to obtain guns, just like eliminating cars would stop car thiefs. I want get into this debate here, as it has been addressed repeatedly in this forum.

I think that the chain of guns getting into criminals' hands requires an intermediary somewhere between the gun manufacturers and the criminals. Gun companies in the US and other 1st world nations generally need to go through distributors anyways by law. 3rd world countries might see guns sold directly to the black market, though that is probably a smaller mechanism than those listed above.

Anyone have any stats proving me right or wrong??
 
TexasRifleman said:
It's not the tool used, it's the human element, no matter how you work the logic.

Stop the behavior, not the type of tool chosen for the crime.
Click to expand...
I agree completely. I'm not trying to imply that the guns falling into the wrong hands are the problem. Guns being available to criminals is still a problem, but not the problem at hand.

I hope that makes sense; the problem is not guns--the problem is the criminals misusing them. Are cars to blame for drunk driving?
 
Its only convicted felons that can't buy guys legally. A person can be very much a criminal, but if not caught and convicted, he can buy all he wants.

Don't forget that there is a black market for guns as well. A criminal buying a roscoe out of the trunk of a car in a back alley does not mean the gun was stolen by anyone. Criminals can also buy all they want in the parking lot in front of a gun show, or from an internet add, or a newspaper add.

I think very few criminals actually steal the guns they use.
 
Good point, Mannlicher.

So let's divide criminals into two categories: (1) convicted criminals, and (2) unconvicted criminals.

The first group cannot legally obtain guns, even if they wanted to. The second group can legally obtain guns, if they want to.

The first group must resort to illegal means of obtaining a gun if they want a gun.

So then how do they end up on the black market? Directly from a manufacturer? o.o
 
Yes, a few are stolen from the manufacturer (have you read My Jihad about how guns were stolen directly from FN?), Stolen (usually in residential burglaries, very few people are stealing from police like John Dillinger), traded (for drugs, other stolen property or quick cash), borrowed, manufactured from scratch.

The murders and attempted murders I've had with firearms have all involved firearms borrowed from friends or family.

I'll give one example: Murder, weapons used single shot .410 with slug. Weapon originally purchased 1982 at Service Merchandise. Friend of Defendant borrows shotgun from family member. Defendant borrows shotgun from him.
 
So, I think attacking the source(s) of where criminals get their guns is more important than making laws that effectively do nothing other than make the general population feel safer.
Click to expand...


I'm with TexasRifleman on this one. AWB 86 anyone ? implies that banning certain types of firearms so they don't fall into criminal hands is a good thing. The problem with that is it steps all over the rights of the majority of good people. Should we ban penises so that the crime of rape is diminished ?

Under that type logic ,what else whould we ban ? What have we tried to ban in the past that has worked to reduce criminal behavior. Probition anyone ? War on Drugs anyone ?

Punish criminal behavior with enough severity to diminish it. That way people will feel safe because they actualy will be safer.
 
I saw someone once take the amount of drugs seized coming into the US, multiply by 10 since the Feds claim to get 10%, and then determine now many AK47's worth of of weight/volume that made. Was something like 100,000 rifles, with 1,000 rounds of ammo each. Annually. And the 10% number is bogus; 5% is more likely so you should double the ball park numbers.

If we can't secure our borders to drugs / illegal aliens, we'd never secure them to smuggled guns.

So, you have to look at causation and why people are committing crimes. Prison seems to be little deterrence, and capital punishment is applied so rarely its of little concern either. They are far more likely to get killed by competing gangs than by the state.

Almost all crime is drug related; property crimes are to get money to buy drugs. I've held every possible opinion on legalizing drugs over the years, and could argue any of them requested.
 
I firmly believe that anyone free to walk the streets should have the inalienable right to keep and bear arms.

I think that the best way to combat the misuse of arms is to level the playing field by fostering a society in which the ownership, carrying, and skilled use of firearms is nearly universal. Anything else will be ineffectual and/or an infringement of our rights.
 
mnrivat, I think you misunderstood the point of my comment about the '86 AWB. Read it again: "[...] laws that effectively do nothing other than make the general population feel safer.

AWB '86 anyone?"

I was pointing out that the AWB of '86 did nothing other than make the general population feel safer by lulling them into feeling false security. Criminals still have the assault weapons the AWB of '86 banned.

Sorry for not being more clear the first time around. :(
 
As soon as the argument is about the inanimate objects instead of the REAL problem, which is criminals, you have already lost the argument.

CRIMINALS MURDER PEOPLE. Stop Criminals.

Boy is that radical or what?

Now some folks will argue that we don't know who will or will not commit murder. Actually for the most part we do. Criminals. It ain't 100% but it is about 95%.

Yup, we could prevent about 95% of todays murders by preventing known criminals from murdering people. The radical concept is called incarceration. Expensive? Yes. Personally I do believe in a very active and proactive Death penalty.

Someone earlier asked about the death penalty for a $500.00 dollar nonviolent theft. I guess we have to wait until the dollar amount is high enough and/or the criminal has cycled to the point of killing folks to fulfill their Psychopathic need to inflict themselves on innocent folks?

Actually where we may have a shot at rehab is with the juvenile criminals. Presently we just teach them that the system will not be a problem for them as they develop their skills as a criminal. We don't punish or rehabilitate even juvenile criminals today. Most cannot be rehabbed.

Most folks don't understand that one cannot rehabilitate some one who has never been 'Habilitated' in the first place. Criminality is a way of life. Just like there are people of good character, there are criminals.

In our present society we tend to reward the criminals and punish those of character. The fellow who served their country, went to college, got a productive job, is accused of being a racist, uncaring, greedy, etc.... The criminal which has done nothing but supply a reason to spend more on welfare, every product we buy, destroy people literally and physically, increase in taxes, and less liberty for the honest folks.

That criminal is called a victim. Not the victims of the predilections, but the criminal is considered the victim. We pay to incarcerate, teach, employ, control, and protect ourselves against "criminals" but not the criminal. Security protects us from raping, looting, and plundering. But none of it stops the individual criminal.

In fact only two things will stop individual criminals from committing crimes. Incarceration or execution. I don't consider incarceration very effective.

I believe that the 'non' capital crimes committed a multiple of times is enough to qualify a criminal for capital punishment.

Brutal, yes. Effective, yes. Will it do away with all criminals, no. But there will be a lot less of them.

It also opens a new can of worms. What is criminal activity, and what is not, what is a Felony and what isn't. That is for another rant, not this one.

Life is tough, it's really tough when you are stupid. --John Wayne

Go figure.

Fred
 
smuggling weapons isn't just big business, its state business. Criminals who smugle weapons into countries often recieve official and unofficial aid from foreign governments.

Why? it keeps factories running and people employed, and if it causes chaos or even destabilizes the destination country, its a bonus.
 
Last edited:
One of gun control's main points is that it aims to reduce the number of guns in the wrong hands.
Click to expand...

There's the lie. The proponents of so-called "gun control" don't care one way or a dozen others about guns in criminal hands. Their goal is to disarm the law-abiding.
 
They just want to make sure that all these guns don't end up in the wrong hands...

Unfortunetly for you, You got the wrong hands!! :uhoh:
 
here's an article I posted a few months back about illegal gun stats in NYC
some highlights:
it takes about 12 years from legal purchase to illegal use of the gun
they were only able to trace about 50% of the guns of those 14.5 came from in-state all others from out of state.

ATF stats on "illegal" guns in NYC
NYC LOADED WITH OUT-OF-STATE GUNS
By LARRY CELONA and HASANI GITTENS

September 7, 2007 -- Holy shoot!
The federal Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has revealed that 85 percent of guns recovered in New York City last year, and that could be traced back to their original owners, come from other states.
According to a report published on the agency's Web site, it also turns out that Brooklyn is the place to be for pistol packers and only eight machine guns were recovered in the city last year.
"This Web site allows ordinary citizens to get a glimpse of what their local police departments are up against in battling illegal firearms traffickers," said William McMahon, Special Agent in Charge of the ATF New York Field Division.
"By analyzing trace results, ATF can better focus our resources to stop the flow of illegal guns into New York," he said.
The ATF was able to trace the original owners of 3,258 firearms recovered last year.
Only 14.5 percent of those guns - 471, the largest number - were followed back to New York state owners.
Out of state, the most originated from Virginia (393), followed by Pennsylvania (317), Georgia (309), South Carolina (289), North Carolina (271) and Florida (217).
Meanwhile the most guns by far were recovered in Brooklyn - 2,558. Queens and The Bronx both had about 1,600, Manhattan 1,017 and Staten Island 295.
And recoveries were up last year by nearly 20 percent at 7,059 firearms compared to 6,031 in 2005.
One of the big statistics the ATF focuses on is "Time-to-Crime," which measures the period between the point when the gun was legally bought and when the weapon was used in a crime.
McMahon said that index has been going up steadily since 2002 when the average time was 9.4 years. Last year the average time-to-crime was 12.3 years.
"That's a good thing," he said, "because that means that there are fewer newer guns coming into the city."
He said that any time a gun recovered with a time-to-crime of less than two years, the agency immediately sends a team out to the original purchaser to track the weapon's movement. The ATF data also shows that the good old pistol is the preferred weapon for the discerning criminal - making up 83 percent of the illegal haul.
More than 4,000 semiautomatic pistols were recovered in the city last year, and an additional 1,774 revolvers, according to the ATF.
Rifles finished a distant third at 618, and 486 shotguns were also recovered.
Derringers - old fashioned, two-round handguns - rounded out the top five with 89.
The ATF also breaks down the firearm recovery data by brand, but it's doubtful any of the manufacturers will be boasting about it in their next ad in Guns & Ammo.
The Hi-Point 9mm semiautomatic was the top gun in New York City, with 310 taken off our mean streets. There were 300 Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolvers recovered.
Gunplay also is a young man's game, according to the numbers. When an age of the possessor was provided, 57 percent were between 18 and 30 years old, 73 percent were 18-40.
[email protected]

They could trace only 3258 out of 7059 guns less than 50%
 
Are cars to blame for drunk driving
Click to expand...
?

If you follow the illogical thinking of the anti's to it's illogical extreme, then yes. Pencils cause poor spelling, alcohol causes bad accidents, not using seatbelts causes traffic fatalities, all in the guise of Big Brother watching out for us.

No thanks, I'll watch out for me!
 
Oh, and don't forget that video games cause you to kill other people. As an avid gamer, that one always pissed me off.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top