AJC1
Member
Were these three random loads or three worked up loads. I much prefer 4064 all the way around but I can pull a max load of 4064 out of a book and do alright in 308, a max charge of tac sucks.
FMJ Loads for 308 Winchester AR
- Thread starter DMW1116
- Start date
I wouldn’t call them random, but they weren’t worked up. I was trying for about 2600 to 2700 fps using data from Hodgden and Shooters World and their minimum charge weights. TAC listed the highest velocity at 2715 fps and 42.3 grains. The lowest was SW AR+ with 2568 fps and 35 grains. I bumped that one up to 35.5 to try to get above 2600. Hodgden and Lyman both listed 43 grains of IMR 4064 and 2660 fps or so. My Hornady app isn’t working right now or I would have checked there too.
Any of the three could probably be tightened up with some load development. TAC and SW AR+ listed data specifically with the Hornady 150 grain FMJ. IMR 4064 had a Nosler 150 grain bullet listed and Lyman listed a Hornady 150 grain soft point both at 43 grains to start.
Any of the three could probably be tightened up with some load development. TAC and SW AR+ listed data specifically with the Hornady 150 grain FMJ. IMR 4064 had a Nosler 150 grain bullet listed and Lyman listed a Hornady 150 grain soft point both at 43 grains to start.
Also, to add to the mystery, I saw a little cratering on the primers with the IMR 4064 load. TAC had the cleanest brass. SW AR+ was pretty clean too, but a little more scratched up on the base than TAC. For comparison I shot a couple PMC 150 grain FMJ factory loads. Both showed a similar amount of cratering as well.
AJC1
Member
Well the tac max for that bullet is 47.1 grains out of the western load manual at 2957 fps I was wondering why you were so low. The 155 lapua shoots 1moa at 42.5 so maybe bump up a ladder???? 42.4 is book minimum and you were below that.
AJC1
Member
Is it 42.4 for TAC? That’s what I used. The velocity is the same but I remembered the charge wrong.
My main goal was as accurate as I could get with the powders I have on hand with a minimum charge to stretch my powder buying dollar. If confirmed, it’s hard to walk away from the accuracy of the IMR load. That matches my 168 grain Speer Match load, though I don’t think the FMJ will hold that. The Speer also did it with 4 shot groups instead of 3.
My main goal was as accurate as I could get with the powders I have on hand with a minimum charge to stretch my powder buying dollar. If confirmed, it’s hard to walk away from the accuracy of the IMR load. That matches my 168 grain Speer Match load, though I don’t think the FMJ will hold that. The Speer also did it with 4 shot groups instead of 3.
AJC1
Member
I don't know if tac is always a multiple node powder but I found two with my bullets. In a direct comparison of value you can use a lot more tac for the same cost as 4064. In 308 I'm launching 165 grain bullets for a hunting load at 45 grains even. My high node for the lapua is 44 something so still less than 4064. I love them both so I'm not pushing one over the other, but I do believe that for low cost loads tac could meet your needs and be cheaper. I also love it in 223 where I haven't developed 4064 yet.
For pure economy, the AR+ takes the prize. It uses 7-10 grains less of powder per shot and is half the price of IMR 4064. AR+, Hornady or RMR 150 grain FMJ, and Winchester Primers gets the cost per round under 50 cents. I just like the tight shooting groups I get from this rifle using IMR 4064. I need to check the LGS and see if they have any more AR+. If so, I'll snag a couple more pounds. The usual on-line dealers don't have any right now.
IMR 4064 shoots heavy bullets in 223 pretty well for me too. Well, certain bullets. I couldn't get the 77 grain SMK to shoot very well. The 75 grain Hornady HPBT was excellent with IMR 4064, regularly turning in 0.75 MOA groups. I have a load for 7.62 NATO brass that uses IMR 4064 and has a good bit of room to move up to max. No pressure issues so far. I may be overly cautious, but I've heard many people say the surplus military brass is thicker and may cause pressure increases.
Locally, TAC is about $13 per pound cheaper than IMR 4064. If AR+ isn't available I may try some X-Terminator. It's available and about $18 cheaper per pound.
I try to use Hornady bullet data for Hornady bullets in this rifle. Hodgden has several Hornady bullets in the 150 grain range listed with TAC. I could in theory drop to 41.x grains of TAC for a 150 grain SST, since Hornady lists all the same weight bullets in the same charge weight chart.
IMR 4064 shoots heavy bullets in 223 pretty well for me too. Well, certain bullets. I couldn't get the 77 grain SMK to shoot very well. The 75 grain Hornady HPBT was excellent with IMR 4064, regularly turning in 0.75 MOA groups. I have a load for 7.62 NATO brass that uses IMR 4064 and has a good bit of room to move up to max. No pressure issues so far. I may be overly cautious, but I've heard many people say the surplus military brass is thicker and may cause pressure increases.
Locally, TAC is about $13 per pound cheaper than IMR 4064. If AR+ isn't available I may try some X-Terminator. It's available and about $18 cheaper per pound.
I try to use Hornady bullet data for Hornady bullets in this rifle. Hodgden has several Hornady bullets in the 150 grain range listed with TAC. I could in theory drop to 41.x grains of TAC for a 150 grain SST, since Hornady lists all the same weight bullets in the same charge weight chart.
AJC1
Member
I've only used shooters world heavy pistol and none of their other powders. I was excited to try precision till I saw a 53 dollar price tag. None of their other powders are even close in price. I also wanted to try ultimate their unique speed powder but I've never seen it yet...
Sticking to what your trying to accomplish I've used n135 to good effect at 49.99 it's the same price as 4064. In not seen n140 available to compare. I've not shot 308 in a few months now, focused on lever gun stuff for junior.
Charlie98
Member
+1
+1
In .308/7.62mm brass... yes. My suggestion is, if you develop a load with military brass, stick with it, or vice versa. Although you aren't using a bulky powder, sometimes it's advantageous to use more spacious commercial brass if you are loading big charges of powder... to avoid compression (if that's not your bag.) FWIW, if you are looking for absolute value, the smaller volume of military brass can work to your advantage... by using up to .5grn less powder for an equivalent load.
I have one load using 7.62 NATO brass. I went to the range one day and the guy next to me was shooting some IMI and GGG 7.62 NATO rounds from a Savage Precision bolt action. He gave me about 100 cases, so I have a load that uses 168 grain Speer bullets and (wait for it) IMR 4064 powder. I'm out of those cases, as they all currently contain powder and bullets. I have a few cases, but they aren't either of those head stamps. They seem to shoot pretty well, but not much better than these FMJ bullets. I have one load I need to check again. It shot well except for one flier. It's a 50/50 chance it was me or the load.
Charlie98
Member
...and I'm not gonna lie. As much as I encourage trying TAC, it is VERY hard to beat IMR4064 in the .308 with 150-175grn bullets... it's a fact. It's one of those macaroni and cheese combos... that always comes out good. You do pay for that ease of use, however. Granted, IMR4064 works very, very well in other cartridges, too, so it's not like you are stuck with it in .308 only.
Found a stash of brass I didn’t know I had. I plan to load up a batch of SW AR+ and Amax bullets in the once fired brass and I’ll clean the twice fired brass I have for the FMJ load with AR+. I’ll save the IMR 4064 for my 75 grain Mock262 load in my 16” barrel or maybe I’ll cave and get some Sierra 175 grain SMK and load those.
anothernewb
Member
I think what everyone really wants is 4064 or varget performance - but in a format that works in a progressive press.
what would probably be easier to develop would be a cartridge case based multi station powered dispenser/trickler with an auto tare function. Drop in an empty primed case. pull out a filled one with the desired charge weight.
I should really get on that and retire.
what would probably be easier to develop would be a cartridge case based multi station powered dispenser/trickler with an auto tare function. Drop in an empty primed case. pull out a filled one with the desired charge weight.
I should really get on that and retire.
AJC1
Member
Check out the Dillon 1050s being used by the likes of Eric Cortina. They don't even pull a handle.... I don't have a final price tag but those fully automated units have to be in the 10k range.
Charlie98
Member
The only downside to that would be you are still dropping the same weight charge into, for example, a piece of brass that is thicker... and resulting in less case volume. Mid-range loads would be fine, but if you were pumping up the data, that could put you into the Danger Zone.
anothernewb
Member
That's what the auto tare would do. would zero the scale each time a case was replaced, negating brass variation in charge weight.
Of course significant brass variation could still result in an overpressure - but that'll happen with any loading process if you develop a max load for a lot of commercial brass and then use it in something like military cases that may be significantly lower internal volume.
Charlie98
Member
That's what I mean. Loading .308 brass, for example, willy-nilly, ignoring the differences between military brass vs commercial brass. Beyond that, it sounds like a great idea!
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