JustinJ
Member
"I dont care what the .mil does, I dont care how your AR runs, I care about MY AR, thats what I need to have proven to me, not .mil testing."
So why are you on a post discussing ARs?
So why are you on a post discussing ARs?
FN SCAR-16s or AR15?
- Thread starter CGRifleman
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Hal Carter
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2011
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- 28
DOM
Brother, you are right on target. What our particular AR or whatever will/won't do is way more important than all the internet chatter, weather pro or con. On any AR di gun, including my pet DD m4, the 1st thing I do is replace the factory bolt/carrier with 1 from Bravo co. that is stamped mpi inspected. Most all manufactorers claim their gun is true mil spec, but most people don't actually shoot theirs enough for it to matter. Get a full auto true mil spec bolt group and an H buffer and a wolff extra recoil spring and you will have less chance of any problems.
Bear with me on this: I'm 56 years old and have been shooting various AR's for over 25 years with very little problems that were not related to either bolt groups or bad mags., but I've never had 1 in a sandstorm either. I remember when Col. Cooper said, nobody should use a mattel looking gun in a poodle shooting cal. (he liked the old garand) Back then to use any handgun except a 1911 was hericy, let alone a plastic high cap 9 mill. Red dot scopes were unheard of, but now you rarely see an ar without 1.
My point with this is this; The piston AR is still fairly new, and may have room for improvements, but I'm betting they are the wave of the future. For anybody who thinks an ar bolt doesn't get hot, all I can say is shoot 3 or 4 mags real fast then break open the di ar and touch that bolt. Have a 1st aid kit nearby. Actually a show on tv about this very thing used the piston ar compaired to a di gun and touched an unlit match to the di ar and it instantly caught on fire. The piston gun was touched by a bare hand with no problems.
As civilions most of us shoot semi auto so some issues the military might have with guns overheating might not apply to us. 1,000 rounds is the most I've ever shot any ar without cleaning, and after 700 or so rounds I could feel the gun getting slugish. Still in our wildest imanination of armageddon or whatever, how many rounds can we invision firing? Keep in mind we have to carry or stash our ammo.
1 more thing, I thought everybody knew that in general an AK is more reliable in harsh conditions, without cleaning than an AR. That is 1 reason everybody started trying to make piston AR's. Of coarse that does NOT mean that our old di AR is junk;far from it. Keep spare springs and change them at regular intervals and keep a like new mil spec bolt and carrier in the gun and use the factory group for practice.
1 more little thing;I can't understand why some say the SCAR in 7.62 nato is great and the 5.56 is not, other than the obvious power difference. It seems to me the more powerful round would beat up the same type system quicker.
Brother, you are right on target. What our particular AR or whatever will/won't do is way more important than all the internet chatter, weather pro or con. On any AR di gun, including my pet DD m4, the 1st thing I do is replace the factory bolt/carrier with 1 from Bravo co. that is stamped mpi inspected. Most all manufactorers claim their gun is true mil spec, but most people don't actually shoot theirs enough for it to matter. Get a full auto true mil spec bolt group and an H buffer and a wolff extra recoil spring and you will have less chance of any problems.
Bear with me on this: I'm 56 years old and have been shooting various AR's for over 25 years with very little problems that were not related to either bolt groups or bad mags., but I've never had 1 in a sandstorm either. I remember when Col. Cooper said, nobody should use a mattel looking gun in a poodle shooting cal. (he liked the old garand) Back then to use any handgun except a 1911 was hericy, let alone a plastic high cap 9 mill. Red dot scopes were unheard of, but now you rarely see an ar without 1.
My point with this is this; The piston AR is still fairly new, and may have room for improvements, but I'm betting they are the wave of the future. For anybody who thinks an ar bolt doesn't get hot, all I can say is shoot 3 or 4 mags real fast then break open the di ar and touch that bolt. Have a 1st aid kit nearby. Actually a show on tv about this very thing used the piston ar compaired to a di gun and touched an unlit match to the di ar and it instantly caught on fire. The piston gun was touched by a bare hand with no problems.
As civilions most of us shoot semi auto so some issues the military might have with guns overheating might not apply to us. 1,000 rounds is the most I've ever shot any ar without cleaning, and after 700 or so rounds I could feel the gun getting slugish. Still in our wildest imanination of armageddon or whatever, how many rounds can we invision firing? Keep in mind we have to carry or stash our ammo.
1 more thing, I thought everybody knew that in general an AK is more reliable in harsh conditions, without cleaning than an AR. That is 1 reason everybody started trying to make piston AR's. Of coarse that does NOT mean that our old di AR is junk;far from it. Keep spare springs and change them at regular intervals and keep a like new mil spec bolt and carrier in the gun and use the factory group for practice.
1 more little thing;I can't understand why some say the SCAR in 7.62 nato is great and the 5.56 is not, other than the obvious power difference. It seems to me the more powerful round would beat up the same type system quicker.
Rubber_Duck
Member
Well the SCAR-H is great IMO because it is the most modern and refined of all 7.62mm rifles. Easy to mount optics to. Good ergonomics (other than charging handle issues) The other contenders in the 7.62x51 game are overweight and outdated designs with no modularity with exception to the Knight's SR-25 EMC which costs and arma and a leg MORE than the SCAR-H.
In 5.56mm however, the AR-15 is so refined these days that the SCAR-L doesn't really bring anything to the table other than quick-change barrels and LMT has been offering that with their MRP, and unlike the SCAR you CAN find barrels for the LMT. Chrome-lined, stainless, piston or DI, anything you want, within the constraints of the 5.56mm magwell. For the cost of the SCAR-16S I would rather have a KAC or Noveske (and I do, I bought a Noveske this year and I'm buying the KAC next year if I don't find a SCAR-17S first). I don't really need QD barrels so I'm sticking with the AR-15 for my 5.56 needs. I've only shot the SCAR-16S so I can't say I'm more accurate with it because I didn't have much range time with it.
This is just my opinion on why I have a differing perspective on the SCAR when it comes to different calibers.
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nwilliams
Member
I get tired of the AR vs all other 5.56 wars that constantly come up.
The fact of the matter is the AR-15 is a proven and reliable design.
HOWEVER there is also the fact that there are many other rifle platforms chambered in 5.56 and just because the AR-15 is the most popular doesn't mean that it's the only gun in that caliber that is worth owning. The SCAR 16s is just another 5.56 caliber rifle for those interested in something different than an AR-15.
I own several 5.56 rifles, a DD AR, a SCAR 16s, an HK-93 and an FS2000. I own them because regardless of the caliber they fire they are all very different rifles with very different ergonomics.
The more I think about it the more I think, why sell the AR just because I shoot the SCAR better. The AR is still a great platform and I still love shooting it so why not own both and on the days I feel like shooting the AR I can and on the days I feel like shooting the AR I can and some days maybe I'll just shoot both.
The truth is that it shouldn't come down to one or the other, if you prefer one over the other then that's fine but I see no problem in liking both platforms and owning one of each.
The fact of the matter is the AR-15 is a proven and reliable design.
HOWEVER there is also the fact that there are many other rifle platforms chambered in 5.56 and just because the AR-15 is the most popular doesn't mean that it's the only gun in that caliber that is worth owning. The SCAR 16s is just another 5.56 caliber rifle for those interested in something different than an AR-15.
I own several 5.56 rifles, a DD AR, a SCAR 16s, an HK-93 and an FS2000. I own them because regardless of the caliber they fire they are all very different rifles with very different ergonomics.
The more I think about it the more I think, why sell the AR just because I shoot the SCAR better. The AR is still a great platform and I still love shooting it so why not own both and on the days I feel like shooting the AR I can and on the days I feel like shooting the AR I can and some days maybe I'll just shoot both.
The truth is that it shouldn't come down to one or the other, if you prefer one over the other then that's fine but I see no problem in liking both platforms and owning one of each.
crossrhodes
Member
It's an adult toy
Now back on earth....To the original OP. Buy what floats your boat. It a fine carbine, it for recreational use only and it's what you will enjoy!!!... I think the rest of the posters ( including myself) got wrapped around the axle on the military thing and lost focus on the recreation part of it.
If you like it, if you have the $$ and you have the time to use it....then go for it. It's an adult toy just like it would be for 95% of the posters here and will never see the use & adverse conditions that a working gun will see. Some times we get to picking fly crap out of pepper and lose focus.
Oh' just for the record.....I'll take the 416.....LOL
Now back on earth....To the original OP. Buy what floats your boat. It a fine carbine, it for recreational use only and it's what you will enjoy!!!... I think the rest of the posters ( including myself) got wrapped around the axle on the military thing and lost focus on the recreation part of it.
If you like it, if you have the $$ and you have the time to use it....then go for it. It's an adult toy just like it would be for 95% of the posters here and will never see the use & adverse conditions that a working gun will see. Some times we get to picking fly crap out of pepper and lose focus.
Oh' just for the record.....I'll take the 416.....LOL
The entire point of the Stoner design isn't just DI - the barrel extension that locks the bolt directly to it, not the receiver, is what allows the forged aluminum upper and lower.
The forging process was chosen - circa the 1950's - as a high strength, mass volume method of construction. Hot forging aluminum platters with a set of dies allows a lot of parts to be built economically, and it significantly reduces machine time for the minimal cleanup left. Don't forget, these were carry handle uppers.
As time marched on and CNC became much cheaper, lo, the flat top A3 is introduced, with little significant increase in costs.
Consider: if all the receivers in an M16 need to do is keep the barrel extension connected to the rear stock, and house some moving parts, is forged aluminum really necessary? It's also been done with sheet metal stamping on other weapons, the HK91 goes back to the 1940's, too, another barrel extension design.
The ACR uses an extruded upper. Extrusion forms two axes of the final part in one pass, and done with precision dies, is a finished dimension. All that's left are the third axis cuts, easily done with todays CNC processes. Can that be done cheaper than forging, I have no doubt. In fact, I'm willing to put money into a business offering those - AR15 extruded aluminum monolithic uppers and lowers, I believe it's something Stoner would have jumped on if the technology had been more advanced and the company mission statement not focused on aeronautical technology.
A complete stripped set of upper and lower finished for $65 is entirely possible. If it can be CNC'd, it certainly can be extruded, and for less. I know it may not exist, I don't see any major impediment to a CNC extrusion process allowing some of the third axis features to be integrally formed - like the cam bolt bump out or fencing. Rails, not so much, they are precision.
Big picture, guns come and go, what most users miss is that technology will advance a concept and offer improvements on the design - sometimes enabling it decades later when production costs allow it. Case in point, it was common knowledge in 1940's physical science texts to discuss the characteristic of quartz vibration when an electric current passed thru it. Well, that took another 30 years to make into a common cheap watch.
The SCAR offers nothing in the way of a significant advance, just economical parts made the same way as a dozen other guns, and nothing new at all in he way of design. Nada. Hailing it as an advanced combat weapon when it doesn't advance antything new at all, and is based off 1950's firearms principles, is really asking us to take it on faith. There's obviously no science in claiming it's better - nobody can state any superior quality expressed in numbers as measured by a credible authority.
Something the proponents would insist be absolutely mandatory if they were plunking down $2000 for a 100 mpg carburetor. Yet they spout the same rhetoric as the ads proclaiming it the greatest invention in the history of man.
The forging process was chosen - circa the 1950's - as a high strength, mass volume method of construction. Hot forging aluminum platters with a set of dies allows a lot of parts to be built economically, and it significantly reduces machine time for the minimal cleanup left. Don't forget, these were carry handle uppers.
As time marched on and CNC became much cheaper, lo, the flat top A3 is introduced, with little significant increase in costs.
Consider: if all the receivers in an M16 need to do is keep the barrel extension connected to the rear stock, and house some moving parts, is forged aluminum really necessary? It's also been done with sheet metal stamping on other weapons, the HK91 goes back to the 1940's, too, another barrel extension design.
The ACR uses an extruded upper. Extrusion forms two axes of the final part in one pass, and done with precision dies, is a finished dimension. All that's left are the third axis cuts, easily done with todays CNC processes. Can that be done cheaper than forging, I have no doubt. In fact, I'm willing to put money into a business offering those - AR15 extruded aluminum monolithic uppers and lowers, I believe it's something Stoner would have jumped on if the technology had been more advanced and the company mission statement not focused on aeronautical technology.
A complete stripped set of upper and lower finished for $65 is entirely possible. If it can be CNC'd, it certainly can be extruded, and for less. I know it may not exist, I don't see any major impediment to a CNC extrusion process allowing some of the third axis features to be integrally formed - like the cam bolt bump out or fencing. Rails, not so much, they are precision.
Big picture, guns come and go, what most users miss is that technology will advance a concept and offer improvements on the design - sometimes enabling it decades later when production costs allow it. Case in point, it was common knowledge in 1940's physical science texts to discuss the characteristic of quartz vibration when an electric current passed thru it. Well, that took another 30 years to make into a common cheap watch.
The SCAR offers nothing in the way of a significant advance, just economical parts made the same way as a dozen other guns, and nothing new at all in he way of design. Nada. Hailing it as an advanced combat weapon when it doesn't advance antything new at all, and is based off 1950's firearms principles, is really asking us to take it on faith. There's obviously no science in claiming it's better - nobody can state any superior quality expressed in numbers as measured by a credible authority.
Something the proponents would insist be absolutely mandatory if they were plunking down $2000 for a 100 mpg carburetor. Yet they spout the same rhetoric as the ads proclaiming it the greatest invention in the history of man.
jackpinesavages
member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2009
- Messages
- 809
SCAR or the FS2000.
For less than 400m I have not been able to beat my FS2000. Weight, ease of maintenance, great for entries and urban missions too. Lately they have become more affordable as well, on the used market.
If you've got that extra bread $$, get the SCAR 16, otherwise FS2000.
For less than 400m I have not been able to beat my FS2000. Weight, ease of maintenance, great for entries and urban missions too. Lately they have become more affordable as well, on the used market.
If you've got that extra bread $$, get the SCAR 16, otherwise FS2000.
yongxingfreesty
Member
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2005
- Messages
- 1,396
unless its a pof, kac sr1r, lwrs, an ar15 is biy 600-700.
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