Foiled Canadian Terror attack included mass public shooting plan

[hillbilly]

I think the implications are pretty clear.

How would you react to a mass public shooting by jihadis at your local shopping mall, or high school football game, or blues concert, or anywhere else infidels gather in large numbers?



http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=8d8b0e88-b576-4438-88a8-da96912f7402&k=70820

2 attacks planned: source
Truck bomb in Toronto, shots on crowd
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Font: * * * * Stewart Bell and Adrian Humphreys; with files from PeterBrieger, National Post
Published: Tuesday, June 06, 2006
The young men charged with plotting terrorist attacks against Canadian targets were allegedly planning two separate strikes -- one to detonate a truck bomb to destroy a significant building and the other to open fire on a crowd in a public place, the National Post has learned.

The conspirators were allegedly concentrating their efforts on their assigned missions and were in an advanced state of planning when authorities moved to arrest the men last weekend, sources said.

The national security component of the huge investigation was code-named Operation Claymore by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, Canada's spy agency, which was on specific alert as its office at the base of the CN Tower was allegedly among the list of prime targets.

The Toronto Stock Exchange was another of the plotters' possible targets for a massive bomb attack, according to law-enforcement sources.

Both attacks would have been devastating to the city of Toronto and, if carried out during business hours, significantly deadly.

Of the 17 people charged, five of them are considered juveniles by the court. Little information on the youths is publicly available regarding their charges.

Of the adults, documents filed in a Brampton, Ont., court suggest that a sub group of six was allegedly involved in the bomb plot.

Nine of them are also charged with training to carry out a terrorist activity.

A smaller group of four are charged with training or recruiting others into a terrorist plot, and three are charged with obtaining firearms.

All of them are charged with participating or contributing to a terrorist group.

The two men identified yesterday by the Post as the alleged terrorist leaders -- Fahim Ahmad, 21, and Zakaria Amara, 20 -- face the most charges. Mr. Ahmad, in fact, is the only one to be charged with all six of the terrorism charges.

Mr. Ahmad and Mr. Amara are joined in being charged with the bomb plot by Asad Ansari, 21, Shareef Abdelhaleem, 30, Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43, and Saad Khalid, 19.

Mr. Ahmad is also charged along with Mohammed Dirie, 22, and Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, with importing a firearm and ammunition for the benefit of a terrorist group and providing weapons to facilitate a terrorist activity.

Mr. Dirie and Mr. Mohamed were arrested for gun smuggling at the Peace Bridge in Fort Erie, Ont., last Aug. 13. They are incarcerated in separate Kingston prisons after earlier pleading guilty to gun offences.

Charged alongside Mr. Ahmad and Mr. Amara with recruiting or providing training to someone to participate in carrying out a terrorist activity are Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19, and Steven Vikash Chand, 25, also known as Abdul Shakur, who converted to Islam from Hinduism.

All of the accused are expected to appear in court this morning. Security is expected to be intense. For their first appearance on Saturday, more than 30 tactical officers ringed the courthouse, a helicopter hovered overheard, and rooftop snipers and bomb-sniffing dogs watched those being frisked by court officers and Peel Regional Police officers.


Go to Link. Story continues on page 2.

hillbilly

 

[Deanimator]

They need to try the mass shooting thing in Texas, first. You know, just to see how it works out...

"Hi, I'm Tom Schieffer with the Nightly News. Tonight in Dallas, an Islamic terrorist was shot in excess of 60 times. He is reported to have pulled out a gun and shouted, 'Allahu ak...' before being gunned down by multiple passersby. Authorities are awaiting the results of DNA testing in hope of identifying the suspect, whose bullet riddled body could not be identified through visual inspection OR dental records."

I'm thinking Ohio isn't going to be the best venue for that sort of thing either. Chicago, on the other hand...

 

[beerslurpy]

I dont know. A couple of terrorists with body armor and rifles would be hard to take down with just a few random CCWs who happened to be on the scene when it started. I would probably **** of Dodge if I could.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

It didn't look like an LA shooting spree of bank robbers w/ body armour and rifles situation. It sounds like these guys maybe got an sks or a bolt action with a scope, and were planning a shooting on a group of people based upon nothing more than having a "target rich" enviroment.

American ccw would likely prevent this in any state with alot of ccws (they'd only bomb in a place like Texas, Georgia, Florida)

 

[boofus]

That's why law abiding people need to start packing the S&W Model 500 and FN FiveseveNs

 

[DonP]

Teeth of the Tiger, Tom Clancy

One of the major plot devices in Tom Clancy's "Teeth of the Tiger" is about Islamic terrorists sneaking across the porous Mexican border and sending out three teams to several shopping malls with automatic weapons.

The idea is to kill the US economy by instilling fear in Americans.

The teams are stopped before they can do too much damage but, FWIW, in one of the malls the terrorists find themselves stopped by a combination of armed citizens and some alert cops. It's a short throwaway comment but it was interesting to see that even included as part of the plot device.

Of course what does Clancy know. When he wrote "Debt of Honor" back in 1996 or so, he had this crazy idea about a vengeful terrorist flying a 747 into the US Capitol.

 

[Malum Prohibitum]

American ccw would likely prevent this in any state with alot of ccws (they'd only bomb in a place like Texas, Georgia, Florida)


Good luck in Georgia. Although there are a lot of firearms licenses here, and a lot of people who carry, there are unfortunately so many places that the law places off limits to carry altogether that it would not be difficult to find a crowd of people who are completely unarmed.

A group of Jews near their synagogue.

Christians near their church.

anybody near public buildings, mass transit, restaurants that serve alcohol, sporting events, schools (even private and adult technical schools - any school), historic sites, state parks, Stone Mountain Park, a lot of local parks (in violation of Georgia's pre-emption law), . . .

Sigh.

My fingers are getting tired of typing and I have only scratched the surface. Look here for a more complete list.

http://www.georgiapacking.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

Georgia has more places off limits than any state in the nation that allows any form of carry.

 

[Leatherneck]

Y'know, on September 11, as 20,000+ people evacuated the Pentagon into South Parking and I-395, I had the chilling realization that this huge pink mass (well--pink on the inside) was extremely vulnerable to men on scooters with assault rifles. They would have been just about the only vehicles moving in the gridlock and all. Still chills me, remembering that.

TC

 

[longeyes]

That's why law abiding people need to start packing the S&W Model 500 and FN FiveseveNs

Or maybe that Kel-Tec .223 "pistol?"

Obviously, assumptions would change in the wake of such terrorist attacks--about acceptable weaponry. And acceptable people.

Let's hope it doesn't happen.

 

[Manedwolf]

How would you react to a mass public shooting by jihadis at your local shopping mall, or high school football game, or blues concert, or anywhere else infidels gather in large numbers?

If present at it? Likely find cover, aim at BG, sight, squeeze. Malls often have useful concrete or stone planters and such that couldn't readily be shot through..and some mall store entrances have complex metal structures and such with openings that one could easily hide behind and sight through. I would expect that if someone opened up in a in a "target-rich environment", they'd be doing spray-n-pray, not sighted aim at every target in the panicking crowd?

The only problem I can see is that it might be difficult to NOT have people running in all directions crossing in back of the BG as well. But if there wasn't, if there was clear shots...well...CCW isn't just about saving your own life, I've always felt it was a responsibility to try to save innocent lives, too, if you can.

If it happened elsewhere, I think open carry would come into fashion where it was legal.
And if terrorists started wearing vests, hopefully someone will make a new Tok pistol for people who can't afford fivesevens! (7.62x25 will punch through a vest too!)

 

[Frandy]

Georgia has more places off limits than any state in the nation that allows any form of carry.

We are in the same unarmed condition here in NC. :banghead:

 

[hillbilly]

I don't think punching through a vest or body armour would be a factor at all in such an event.

The jihadist's main goal is to become a shahid (or shaheed, as Arabic doesn't have regularized English spellings) or martyr for Allah.

They won't be wearing vests, because they want to die as they kill infidels.

That's the whole point. That's their ticket to paradise and the 72 virigns--to die while waging jihad against infidels.

Mass panic in the targeted citizens would be a major factor. There might be even more killed and wounded in the stampede, which is something else the jihadis are banking on. Create the most horror and terror possible to create even more casualties.

And I doubt seriously the jihadists would really use cover and concealment well at all. I'd predict they'd yell "Allah-hua-Akbhar!" a lot and mainly stand or run around in the open and bang away.

I think lots of the folks on THR saw the gruesome video of the jihadi in Iraq who was taken out by a Marine SAW gunner. The jihadi just walked out into the middle of the street, knelt down, sighted an RPG at the Marines, and got hosed, while his buddies were hollering "Allah-hua-Akbhar!" in the background.

Do a search for the term "Allah's Waiting Rooms" in Iraq.

Jihadists established a pattern of shooting at US forces, and then holing up in one building for a heroic "last stand" for Allah. US forces took to just surrouding the structure, calling in air strike, and sending them to meet Allah, hence the snarky little nickname.

That's what makes them so dangerous.

They absolutely want to die. And dying while killing infidels is the whole point of the operation.

There has not yet been a pattern of subtlety or "tacticality" in most jihadist suicide attacks.

The only stealth or "tacticality" in such an operation would be in smuggling the weapons into an target-rich environment. But once it started, I would bet they would just stand in the open, shoot a lot, and yell a lot, hoping to get martyred for Allah.

hillbilly

 

[Lou629]

Malum & Frandy...

At least you guys each live in a state where you can GET a carry permit in the first place. Up here in NJ ( just across from that big bullseye on the other side of the river ) where abdul & co. are the MOST likely to try something like this, you can't get a permit unless you're an FBI agent, local LEO, politician or rich celebrity.

 

[Manedwolf]

And I doubt seriously the jihadists would really use cover and concealment well at all. I'd predict they'd yell "Allah-hua-Akbhar!" a lot and mainly stand or run around in the open and bang away.

Oh, I agree. What I was saying that situationally-aware CCWs can take advantage of cover and concealment to try to STOP them with well-placed, well-aimed shots, if such a thing happened. No movie-nonsense fantasy of ninja rolls, just very quickly getting behind some store's complex metal-pillars entrance or behind whatever, in case others are behind you in the mall. Where you'd not be seen, and where you could calmly line up on them.

In fact, I'd hope that'd be their strategy. Some nuts with AKs (or, more likely, illegal machine pistols?) covering each other and going from cover to cover would be more dangerous than wildly spraying one out in the middle of a mall aisle. If they did that, anyone armed would have a greater chance of more slowly lining up a better shot to drop them before they could get too many innocents, I would think. I hope.

Hope it never happens, too.

 

[carebear]

Instead of wondering what weapon to use to defend ourselves against this kind of attack, why don't we be proactive and simply ban the purchase, possession or transporting of firearms capable of using high-capacity magazines and rapid fire?

If we get started now, there may be time to collect them all up before the jihadis can regroup for another try.

 

[boofus]

It'd be far simpler and easier and no less illegal to just ban islam and confiscate muslims.

 

[ClonaKilty]

Mr. Ahmad is also charged along with Mohammed Dirie, 22, and Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24, with importing a firearm and ammunition for the benefit of a terrorist group

I'm wondering where they brought them in from...US or another country?

 

[TIZReporter]

Canada's Conservatives are starting what is likely a long, and very slow task of rolling back the very oppressive gun laws enacted by the Liberal government which preceded them.

These terrorists were training for as long as two years, and were thankfully caught.

Some in the Canadian political and media are already downplaying the possibilities of an attack.

Canada, without CCW legislation would allow a group of terrorists to have at the people like a pack of wolves in a herd of lambs.

Ridiculous.

TIZ

 

[gezzer]

Muslims ARE the problem. Note the terrorist of 9/11 came from Canada. Didn't Tronto just been in the news about installing islamic courts for Muslim use. Seems it don't matter if you get on your knees with you butt up or not ISLAM is the problem.

 

[shootinstudent]

carebear is highlighting a good point.

Hyping the threat of jihadist shootings is going to provide fuel for the anti-gun movement, not fuel for pro-CCW movements, just like school shooting paranoia did.

It'd be far simpler and easier and no less illegal to just ban islam and confiscate muslims..

is there some kind of DNA test we can use at the airport to figure out if someone is muslim or not? How exactly would we prevent a clever terrorist, under this policy, from simply saying "I'm Christian" on the immigration forms?

 

[DesertEagle613]

This thread is getting locked in a hurry…

 

[Chrontius]

A clever "Stand up to Terrorism" marketing campaign (viral marketing via the 'net?) could go a long way to opening up open carry opportunities.

 

[NukemJim]

Uhmm....No offense intended but I am aware of 2 (two) mass/public shootings that people who were carrying at the time of the shooting intervened.

One in Texas with a shooter with anAK-Clone (semi IIRC) and body armour. The man who was carrying was killed and did not wound the shooter IIRC. Definetly did not stop/kill the shooter. The second was in the Northwest a mall shooting the person who was carrying did not stop the shooter, was shot and I believe is now a paraplegic.

The Shooter(s) will have the advantage of surpise, almost certainly a rifle, more ammo (remember he doesn't have to carry it home with him ), planned and practiced his/her part in the attack, and possibly numbers.

Why do you think that in a future event events are going to turn out differently


If I have missed any other mass/public shootings where somone has been CCWing at that point in time (Not having to run out to the car to get it) and intervened would someone please point them out to me.

Thank you

NukemJim

 

[Manedwolf]

The second was in the Northwest a mall shooting the person who was carrying did not stop the shooter, was shot and I believe is now a paraplegic.

From what I understood of that event, he drew, hesitated, and then put it away again or such?

 

[Deanimator]

A group of Jews near their synagogue.

Right after 9/11, the synagog of a friend here in Cleveland organized an armed defense. There was ALWAYS at least one armed individual at services, cop or civilian, usually more.

Don't let the Schumers and Metzenbaums fool you. I know quite a few Jews, and the majority of them haven't got the slightest inclination to be shot down helplessly.