FOLLOW THE YELLOWBRICK ROAD - aka the NAFTA Super Highway

Status
Not open for further replies.
makes you wonder if opposition groups will sabotage the construction of the road? I wonder what kind of security you might find there to deter a little 'domestic terrorism'???


Just a thought that crossed my mind as I see this being viewed as a threat to US sovereignty, etc.


could be interesting times.
 
If the "free market" guys want to set themselves against America, so be it. National survival trumps any economic system. Either Government will come down on illegal alien employers or someone else will, that's my prediction.
 
longeyes, just what in the world is common between expanded transportation systems and illegal aliens?

Separately, a true Liberttarian oughta be in favor of this deal. After all, it's putting a public use facility into the private sector, removing it from Guvmint.

:), Art
 
Separately, a true Libertarian oughta be in favor of this deal. After all, it's putting a public use facility into the private sector, removing it from Guvmint.
As much as I really, really try I can't quite convince myself that treaties like NAFTA, CAFTA, and FTAA are expressions of free market capitalism. I would love to just swallow the concept and free up mental disc space for other concerns. I just can't. I can't quite convince myself that the progeny of the trade agreements are true expressions of capitalism. I instead keep telling myself we are seeing the latest variation of foreign aide. Be a good little country and do what we, the benevolent US, wants done and we will reward the good little country will grant preferrential access to our markets. Don't do what we want and all kinds of unpleasantness will descend upon you.

Another little issue getting NO play is the sovereignty limiting provisions of all the "free trade" agreements we sign. If we are looking at free market capitalism we have no need for tens of thousands of bureaucrats to enforce trade agreements. We have no need for sovereignty limiting courts, panels, boards, commissions, etc. In free market capitalism a willing buyer and a willing seller enter into an agreement. Instead we the anthesis of free. We see rules and regulation. It all seems pointed in one direction and that being limitation on individual life, liberty, and property and the magnification of the state and political clients of the state.

I welcome the evident appearance of "free market" principals in international trade. I have real questions about the ultimate purpose.
 
Perhaps this mega-highway was predicated on the concept that by the time it was completed there would be no illegal aliens because there would be no borders? How do we know what those Mexican trucks will be transporting?

The illegal alien problem has many aspects. One, of course, is the elimination of the concept of national sovereignty. That's how this program presents itself to me. I say put it up for public scrutiny and let America decide how good an idea it really is, especially right now.

And you don't find disturbing a "protected" highway that cuts your country in half like a DMZ? Built by a foreign contractor?

I don't think this is about "expanded transportation." Why not enlarge our existing ports and improve our own existing highways from both coasts?
 
In most things I am a libertarian, true, but I interpret libertarianism as a political system that has for its highest priority the empowerment of the individual. That is emphatically not what we are seeing with the ascendacy of the trans-national corporation and its unholy alliance with ever-growing and increasingly less representative governments. There is nothing individualistic or democratic about modern, large-scale corporations. They are no more accountable than the deaf politicians, blind justices, and dumb bureaucrats that have seized so much of American life.
 
Regarding the issue of gov responsibility and public awareness.

Firstly, the gov - in general - is all too aware of what many think of this project and why, taking into account all the related subjects involved. They are also aware of the fact that this is just a part of a larger agenda. They do what they must and only what they must; go through the legal steps, and it all get's recorded in the register as required. There are a couple of press releases, and they issue their usual [downplaying] "I appreciate your concerns .." replies to those who collar them in writing over the matter.

The gov does not have to do anymore in order to "conceal" this, and there is a standard pattern of m.o. They have their priimary level of the control of information in the form of the mainstream mass media - who will dutyfully fail to make the subject a major and continuing story. This is how the game is played, and the m.o. can be applied to any subject they please, and has been evident so many times before.

Those citizens or groups who followup on subjects like this either directly through their gov channels, or via the internet through persistant research - are not going to see the subject dissected and continually hammered on CNN or FOX. They are not going to get a chance to challenge an elected gov official on primetime national TV, or with Larry King.

Thus a major portion of citizens will not even be aware of it at all; and of those that note the limited press news stories, a good portion will think it's "a great way to boost trade, tourism and boost the community spirit north and south". And swallow it wholesale.

In the meantime, the usual mysteriously organized and funded "pro Pan-America Highway Citizens" groups will suddenly appear. Now the major media will pick up on it, and treat it in the usual "pro and con" [subjective] fashion, and air the more obvious arguements of both "sides".

And ultimately, the project will roll forward - with of course the ubiquitous "checks and safeguards" to placate those contrary folk and their [mere] "concerns". Both gov and media mouthpieces can sit there smugly and say, "What do you mean "coverup" .. ?"

Seeing it played on TV is all very much like watching a kangaroo court in progress; where you are muzzled as a member of the public gallery. Whether you have jumped into the letter writing and protesting etc - or not.

------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
Waitone said:
Another little issue getting NO play is the sovereignty limiting provisions of all the "free trade" agreements we sign.
Sorry about quoting myself. To the point of sovereignty limiting provisions of "trade agreements" I find the following (highlighting added)
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15623
North American Union Would Trump U.S. Supreme Court

by Jerome R. Corsi
Posted Jun 19, 2006

The Bush Administration is pushing to create a North American Union out of the work on-going in the Department of Commerce under the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America in the NAFTA office headed by Geri Word. A key part of the plan is to expand the NAFTA tribunals into a North American Union court system that would have supremacy over all U.S. law, even over the U.S. Supreme Court, in any matter related to the trilateral political and economic integration of the United States, Canada and Mexico.

Right now, Chapter 11 of the NAFTA agreement allows a private NAFTA foreign investor to sue the U.S. government if the investor believes a state or federal law damages the investor’s NAFTA business.

Under Chapter 11, NAFTA establishes a tribunal that conducts a behind closed-doors “trial” to decide the case according to the legal principals established by either the World Bank’s International Centre for the Settlement of Investment Disputes or the UN’s Commission for International Trade Law. If the decision is adverse to the U.S., the NAFTA tribunal can impose its decision as final, trumping U.S. law, even as decided by the U.S. Supreme Court. U.S. laws can be effectively overturned and the NAFTA Chapter 11 tribunal can impose millions or billions of dollars in fines on the U.S. government, to be paid ultimately by the U.S. taxpayer.

On Aug. 9, 2005, a three-member NAFTA tribunal dismissed a $970 million claim filed by Methanex Corp., a Canadian methanol producer challenging California laws that regulate against the gasoline additive MTBE. The additive MTBE was introduced into gasoline to reduce air pollution from motor vehicle emissions. California regulations restricted the use of MTBE after the additive was found to contaminate drinking water and produce a health hazard. Had the case been decided differently, California’s MTBE regulations would have been overturned and U.S. taxpayers forced to pay Methanex millions in damages.

While this case was decided favorably to U.S. laws, we can rest assured that sooner or later a U.S. law will be overruled by the NAFTA Chapter 11 adjudicative procedure, as long as the determinant law adjudicated by the NAFTA Chapter 11 tribunals continues to derive from World Court or UN law. Once a North American Union court structure is in place can almost certainly predict that a 2nd Amendment challenge to the right to bear arms is as inevitable under a North American Union court structure as is a challenge to our 1st Amendment free speech laws. Citizens of both Canada and Mexico cannot freely own firearms. Nor can Canadians or Mexicans speak out freely without worrying about “hate crimes” legislation or other political restrictions on what they may choose to say.

Like it or not, NAFTA Chapter 11 tribunals already empower foreign NAFTA investors and corporations to challenge the sovereignty of U.S. law in the United States. Sen. John Kerry (D.-Mass.) has been quoted as saying, “When we debated NAFTA, not a single word was uttered in discussing Chapter 11. Why? Because we didn’t know how this provision would play out. No one really knew just how high the stakes would get.” Again, we have abundant proof that Congress is unbelievably lax when it comes to something as fundamental as reading or understanding the complex laws our elected legislators typically pass.

Under the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) plan expressed in May 2005 for building NAFTA into a North American Union, the stakes are about to get even higher. A task force report titled “Building a North American Community” was written to provide a blueprint for the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America agreement signed by President Bush in his meeting with President Fox and Canada’s then-Prime Minister Paul Martin in Waco, Tex., on March 23, 2005.

The CFR plan clearly calls for the establishment of a “permanent tribunal for North American dispute resolution” as part of the new regional North American Union (NAU) governmental structure that is proposed to go into place in 2010. As the CFR report details on page 22:

The current NAFTA dispute-resolution process is founded on ad hoc panels that are not capable of building institutional memory or establishing precedent, may be subject to conflicts of interest, and are appointed by authorities who may have an incentive to delay a given proceeding. As demonstrated by the efficiency of the World Trade Organization (WTO) appeal process, a permanent tribunal would likely encourage faster, more consistent and more predictable resolution of disputes. In addition, there is a need to review the workings of NAFTA’s dispute-settlement mechanism to make it more efficient, transparent, and effective.


Robert Pastor of American University, the vice chairman of the CFR task force report, provided much of the intellectual justification for the formation of the North American Union. He has repeatedly argued for the creation of a North American Union “Permanent Tribunal on Trade and Investment.” Pastor understands that a “permanent court would permit the accumulation of precedent and lay the groundwork for North American business law.” Notice, Pastor says nothing about U.S. business law or the U.S. Supreme Court. In the view of the globalists pushing toward the formation of the North American Union, the U.S. is a partisan nation-state whose limitations of economic protectionism and provincial self-interest are outdated and as such must be transcended, even if the price involves sacrificing U.S. national sovereignty.

When it comes to the question of illegal immigrants, Pastor’s solution is to erase our borders with Mexico and Canada so we can issue North American Union passports to all citizens. In his testimony to the Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committee on June 9, 2005, Pastor made this exact argument: “Instead of stopping North Americans on the borders, we ought to provide them with a secure, biometric Border Pass that would ease transit across the border like an E-Z pass permits our cars to speed though toll booths.”

Even Pastor worries about the potential for North American Unions to overturn U.S. laws that he likes. Regarding environmental laws, Pastor’s testimony to the Trilateral Commission in November 2002 was clear on this point: “Some narrowing or clarification of the scope of Chapter 11 panels on foreign investment is also needed to permit the erosion of environmental rules.” Evidently it did not occur to Pastor that the way to achieve the protection he sought was to leave the sovereignty of U.S. and the supremacy of the U.S. Supreme Court intact.

The executive branch under the Bush Administration is quietly putting in place a behind-the-scenes trilateral regulatory scheme, evidently without any direct congressional input, that should provide the rules by which any NAFTA or NAU court would examine when adjudicating NAU trade disputes. The June 2005 report by the SPP working groups organized in the U.S. Department of Commerce, clearly states the goal:

We will develop a trilateral Regulatory Cooperative Framework by 2007 to support and enhance existing, as well as encourage new cooperation among regulators, including at the outset of the regulatory process.

We wonder if the Bush Administration intends to present the Trilateral Regulatory Cooperative Framework now being constructed by SPP.gov to Congress for review in 2007, or will the administration simply continue along the path of knitting together the new NAU regional governmental structure behind closed doors by executive fiat? Ms. Word affirms that the membership of the various SPP working group committees has not been published. Nor have the many memorandums of understanding and other trilateral agreements created by these SPP working groups been published, not even on the Internet.
 
I don't argue about the Nafta notions or the illegal alien problem with any of the previous pages' worth of postings. The way all this is being "sold" and the possible bad-guy-ness of the possible owner/operator may well be all wrong.

But I don't think Nafta will go away.

So lemme ask this: Does anybody think that the US population, and the Texas population, will not grow? Similarly for the volume of business, and the volume of transportation of all sorts?

I've said that I believe--and I ain't alone--that parts of our Interstate system are overloaded. Same for some parts of our rail systems.

So what's the alternative? And, which is better? A coordinated, planned expansion to deal with the next fifty years? Or a sorta hodge-podge "every man for himself" build here, build there, whatever?

IOW, there are somewhere around three different arguments going on, and the present structure of the opposition is creating a situation of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

If public opposition kills this Corridor-concept project, about all I could advise is to stay way away from I-35...

Damfino,

Art
 
The population is growing so rapidly precisely *because* of immigration, illegal in particular. The strains are showing up everywhere, including our infrastructure. The solution, at least a big part of it, seems obvious to me.
Again from the Bush administration comes the Problem-Reaction-Solution plan.
Hegel would be proud.

Biker
 
If we have labor problems at our ports, let's address those. If we need to revamp our interstate highway system, let's do that. Hey, we might even need an energy-independence program. Who's against progress?

But this? This is not a solution to a "problem" that exists anywhere except in the minds of a globalist cabal. We can forge good long-term relations with Mexico and Canada without expunging our precious two-century political legacy and radically undoing our own sovereignty and culture. Turning over our future to a small group of unelected bureaucrats? This is a profanation.

More than anything I am struck by the hubris evinced by this plan. Next comes the Greek tragedy.
 
If public opposition kills this Corridor-concept project, about all I could advise is to stay way away from I-35...

Art i do that now 1-35 in my opinion is a death trap, too much drug traffic
with drivers using their product and an overall lack of common sense on
the part of all drivers. I do not see the "corridor-concept" providing any
relief for this state other then to increase crime.


Hey, we might even need an energy-independence program. Who's against progress?

Longeyes I believe I am against some progress that benefits a small segment of society, as I age a controlled population growth with less change "may" in many cases bring a better quality of life rather then simply change to add bucks to a few pockets or an increase in the stock market.
 
Longeyes I believe I am against some progress that benefits a small segment of society, as I age a controlled population growth with less change "may" in many cases bring a better quality of life rather then simply change to add bucks to a few pockets or an increase in the stock market.

I agree with you. Certainly we need to look carefully at who really benefits and at what price.

"Progress" that de facto nullifies our Bill of Rights isn't progress.
 
Art, these sorts of projects are popping up lots of places. There's a serious proposal floating around to build a toll road for trucks next to I-81 in Virginia.

""They're going to put down eight acres per mile of new pavement in a project 325 miles long..."

The projected toll is estimated at $100 per truck and most of the trucks will pay that much because they're just passing through Virginia. They could always go cross country and go up I-95. :)

The folks in the Shennandoah Valley are pitching a fit. Of course, I-81 is a nightmare now and it isn't getting any better.

i-81.gif


John
 
Well, whether I-81, I-35 or parts of I-10 (and others), if you wait long enough to "fix" a problem, it just gets worster and worster. :)

I diagnosed my cancer in time for successful surgery. A buddy of mine didn't; same kind of cancer--but he's dead. Just like with highways, ya gotta keep an eye on the future, or problems will really mess you up.

You can't rationally blame all this on illegals or Mexico or Canada. We buy from and sell to those countries. And the illegals, 8% of our population, are
only a small part of our growth.

Hey, some of it is 'cause Old Farts like me won't die off early enough, and we buy stuff. My parents made it into their nineties, and I'm only 72 (come July).

Art
 
Illegal aliens may be only eight per cent of our population but MOST of our population growth is currently being accounted for their offspring.

Of course The Rest of Us have something to do about that. One is reminded of the famous quote:

"Vivre? les serviteurs feront cela pour nous" ("Living? Our servants will do that for us")
~Auguste Villiers de L'isle-Adam

George Bush is Hegel in a cowboy hat.
 
There are many forms of coups d'etat. We're watching one slowly unfold right now, all in the name of "progress."
Sadly, there has been at least one other coups d'etat, i.e., that of Honest Abe. By the end of the Civil War, Lincoln had succeeded in transforming our nation into one wholly different from that established by the Founders. The component parts of that new nation have been falling into place piece by piece ever since.
 
What Biker and The Real Hawkeye said.

It is not just illegal immigration though; we are way past the day when this country actually benefited from immigration and rapid growth. We have passed the point where we had plenty of room for an expanding homegrown population, and a gradual process of managable growth.

Houston Texas is a prime example. Whereas about thirty years ago it was a pretty healthy growing city it has since undergone a rapid and uncontrolled expansion to where it is now a chaotic mess in about all aspects. Illegal immigration and very lax legal immigration has all but finished the job.

The fact is, we do not need any more immigration into this country or "growth for growth's sake". We need a thorough housecleaning and consolidation.

The new highway coupled with CAFTA and it's next stages will only compound the current state of the problems we have. It is a destructive insanity.

We can trade with Canada and Mexico or any other country that has anything we can not produce ourselves and need, and via versa. A balance of trade goes beyond the simple monetary exchange for goods traded, it must maintain a business and employment environment that is conducive to an expanding middle class - not destroying it in preference to foreign countries. Unrestricted trade is folly.

------------------------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org
 
tales from Narco-America - coming soon, to a trading zone near you

3 Officers Among 4 Decapitated in Mexico
Police were responding to a kidnapping report when met by 100 armed men, witnesses say.
By Richard Marosi, Times Staff Writer
June 22, 2006

SAN DIEGO — Mexican authorities discovered the decapitated bodies of three police officers and a fourth man Wednesday near an empty lot in the seaside town of Rosarito Beach, about 15 miles south of the border.

The officers had gone missing Tuesday after responding to a report of a kidnapping. Witnesses said that the officers were intercepted by about 100 heavily armed, masked men dressed as Mexican federal agents, said a spokesman for the Baja California state attorney general's office.

The men's bodies showed signs of torture. Their heads were found in Tijuana, several miles away. Authorities said the men were the victims of an organized crime hit, the latest in a string of killings or attempted killings of law enforcement officials in Baja California.

Rosarito Beach, a popular weekend destination for Southern Californians, is also a heavily contested transshipment point for drug traffickers.

One of the victims — Benjamin Fabian Ventura, was the bodyguard of Rosarito Beach's former police chief, Carlos Bowser Miret, who was killed in an ambush slaying last year.

The other dead police officers are Jesus Hernandez Ballesteros and Ismael Arellano Torres. The fourth man was not identified.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top