Follow up to timed shooting my pistol grip Ithaca.

[M2 Carbine]

Last week I used a timer when shooting my Ithaca PGO shotgun and posted the results.
A couple posters suggested I compare the results with a stocked shotgun.



Each time, I shot three clay pigeons scattered on my dirt backstop.
I started with the gun pointed down and the chamber empty.
The PGO Ithaca was fired from the hip.
The stocked Remington 870 was aimed from the shoulder.
The Ithaca has a cylinder bore and the 870 has a modified choke.

These are the Ithaca results.
10 yards
1.42-1.09-.94 seconds
No misses.

10 yards
1.34-.88-.85 seconds
one miss.

15 yards
1.13-1.01-.98
No misses.

7 yards
.95-.93-.90
No misses.

5 yards
1.22-.97-.99
One miss

10 yards
.98-.88.-.94
One miss

So, 3 misses in 18 shots.
With an average time of 1.02 seconds.
That doesn't seem too bad.



Thursday I shot the Remington 870.
First thing I had a mishap. I wanted to shoot a couple slugs at 50 yards.
When loading the gun I hit my left hand with the rear (rifle) sight. I never noticed before but the sight has sharp edges and took a hunk out of my knuckle. I had to tie a rag around my hand to stop the bleeding.
I don't know that the rag slowed my working the pump, but it didn't help.

Here's the times.
There were no misses (sometimes I surprise myself )

7 yards.
1.60-1.29-1.19 seconds

7 yards.
1.38- .98-1.03 seconds

10 yards.
1.37-1.38-1.02 seconds

15 yards.
1.47-.96-1.17 seconds

25 yards
1.76-1.18-1.19 seconds

10 yards.
1.60-.88-.98 seconds

7 yards.
1.16-1.15-1.61 seconds

10 yards.
.84-1.75-1.29 seconds

No misses in 24 shots and an average of 1.26 seconds compared to an average time of 1.02 and three misses in eighteen shots with the Ithaca.


So what does this prove?

First, that fast timed shotgun shooting at clay pigeons is a lot of fun.

Second, that I don't do enough shotgun shooting.

Third, that the PGO shotgun could be a formidable weapon if practiced with, (and I intend doing that as soon as my right hand heals )

Forth, in this very limited experiment the stocked shotgun holds the edge because of it's ease in shooting accurately.



Personal note to shooter.
Next trip to town stock up on shotgun shells.

 

[Jeff F]

Do that same drill with slugs.

 

[Sunray]

There is nothing on Earth that is as totally and completely useless than a shotgun with just a pistol grip. Except for a rifle with one. Shooting from the hip gives you no control either. It's a BS Hollywood thing.
"...as soon as my right hand heals..." I rest my case.

 

[PTK]

Sunray

PGO shotguns have their place, but they are very limited in use.

 

[Dave McCracken]

And the verdict is in. A couple things...

While someone can train to a moderate level of proficiency with a PGO,(I did) the same amount of time,energy and ammo with a standard shotgun will see you freakin' deadly. The PGO is that much of a handicap.

Apples to apples, I've found that a well smoothed Ithaca is very similar in speed to an 870 of similar experience, assuming a trained hand at the wheel.

And, as often said, one cannot miss fast enough to win a firefight.

Thanks for posting,M2 ....

 

[Leadhead]

There is nothing on Earth that is as totally and completely useless than a shotgun with just a pistol grip. Except for a rifle with one. Shooting from the hip gives you no control either. It's a BS Hollywood thing.
"...as soon as my right hand heals..." I rest my case.

Sunray, try reading the post again a little slower and you might find that M2 cut his hand on the rear sight of his buttstocked 870 while loading.....but thanks for the rant!

Shooting from the hip with M2's Ithaca would be one of the more "controled" techniques for that configuration

A gun with no ammo is more useless. I rest my case.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Yesterday, 11:26 PM #2
Jeff F
345 Do that same drill with slugs.

My friend also said use 00 Buckshot next time.

When I try these types of backyard experiments I try to stack the cards against me a little. That's why I used randomly placed clay pigeons instead of silhouettes or a COM size target.
If I used slugs or 00 Buck on the clay targets a unbroken target could still be a "good shot" within COM. Where as blowing up a pigeon with #7.5 probably means a near center hit. I counted it a miss when the target only received a few pellets.

This time I was just trying for speed with a good solid hit.

Next time I think it would be interesting to use a COM size target and slugs or 00 Buck.
I've got a case of slugs.

Sunray
There is nothing on Earth that is as totally and completely useless than a shotgun with just a pistol grip.

I sincerely hope if I ever have to use that Ithaca the other guy believes that.

 

[Gordon]

I used pepper poppers for years in the early 80s with a pistol grip 870 using 00 buck. You need a CENTERED pattern not just a hit. Also 3 misses in 18 shots at 10 yards is not acceptable in gunfighting, not on running, dodgeing targets constantly changing their range!
Like the man says if you practice enough on a known range you can perform trick shots,however the rounds would be better spent in the real world!

 

[M2 Carbine]

Also 3 misses in 18 shots at 10 yards is not acceptable in gunfighting, not on running, dodgeing targets constantly changing their range!

True.

Know where I can get some running, dodging, constantly changing their range volunteers to run around my range while I practice on them?

 

[huckster]

no - but wobble trap, five stand and sporting clays come to mind as approximations.

 

[M2 Carbine]

No, probably not.
I'm not that big a fan of shotgun shooting.

This recent shooting did remind me that I need to get the shotguns out a little more often though.

 

[Jeff F]

I do have to agree with M2 in that those Remington rear sights are way to sharp. I've cut myself on a couple of mine a few times. I wonder if anyone makes decent replacement leaf for those.

 

[Coronach]

The big problem with these experiments (besides small n) is that if they are within-subjects designs, usually the subject has experience with one type of SG or the other. If they are between-subjects designs, there is almost always a difference in skill level between the two subjects.

TRANSLATION:

If Dave goes out to evaluate the two shotgun designs, chances are that Dave knows how to shoot a shotgun already (probably a stocked gun). So, Dave will already be more adept at handling one type of gun, thus skewing the results.

Or, if Mike and Dave go out to shoot these guns, and Mike knows how to shoot a PGO gun and Dave knows how to shoot a stocked gun, there is a question as to whether or not their levels of skill are comparable. That is, is Dave trouncing Mike because of the equipment, or because he's just really good at running a shotgun?

The way to settle this once and for all is to take 500 newbies, 250 stocked 870s and 250 PGO 870s, and a few railroad cars of ammo, and shoot a a shotgun course.

Anyone up for bankrolling this effort?

Mike

 

[M2 Carbine]

In this case the comparison between the PGO and stocked shotgun was probably pretty even.
I'm not a "shotgun person" so I don't shoot either gun very much. Probably haven't averaged three times a year for a lot of years.
I actually surprised myself that the speed and accuracy wasn't a lot worse.

It was a fun experiment and makes me want to do some more things, so maybe the shotguns will get a little more use.