Followup on 4 cops v 1 felon in San Antonio

[St. Gunner]

Blackhawk,

I haven't caught him at the house yet, been by a few times yesterday and today. If I can't run him down i'm heading to town to a local gunshop that normally has a few SAPD guys hanging out in it and i'll ask them.

Where are you located at? We'll have to get all the guys from this part of Texas out one day and shoot here at the house, i've got 300yds of range we can use.

 

[St. Gunner]

Blackhawk,

Speer Golddots 180gr version from what I have been able to gather from a couple different folks today, two said 180 and one said 155gr. I thought I had read when the Glock was adopted it was going to be a 155gr loading. But I don't think it really matters all that much...

Got more info on the placement also, five superficial wounds to begin with that had no real affect and number six was to the head which dropped him right now.

It brings up an interesting question though about placement and such, I was taught and have been told two to the center mass and if the threat is still there, one to the head. That this is the most legally defendable combination to use. I know I carry a little .22 at times when I can't find a good way to conceal my other carry piece and my thought has always been, straight to the head with the rat shooter. With about anything else i'll stick with two to the body,one to the head(the lawyer insists it is a good idea).

 

[Blackhawk]

Thanks, Steve!

That's two great pieces of information about this vexing incident.

"Superficial" normally means that a wound wouldn't even do muscle damage as in like being grazed. I wonder if the wounds weren't to vital areas instead? It's really hard to just nick somebody.

BTW, last time I was in Devine was in 1970. Flew in to sell an airplane. Seemed like a great little town! Thanks for the offer, and "if ever" I'll give you a warning!

 

[Matthew Courtney]

I think it prudent to point out that the vital organs on a 275 pound man tend to be the same size as the vitals of a 150 pound man. That means that there is a lot more area where you can hit the torso and miss all the vital organs. It seems from the various descriptions that this dude was quite large. Shot placement is everything.

 

[ahenry]

That would also tend to support Blackhawk's position.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Bingo.

Now we know that the .40 caliber wasn't at fault. Five superficial wounds with a .45 and one to the head likely would have given the EXACT SAME result.

 

[ahenry]

Mike, You can seriously mean that can you?! Have you forgotten “hypersplatterization�

 

[Blackhawk]

Now we know that the .40 caliber wasn't at fault. Five superficial wounds with a .45 and one to the head likely would have given the EXACT SAME result.

5 superficial woulds with a .50 BMG and a .32 ACP to the nose would too!

Placement! It's ALWAYS placement! And the crucial place to shoot AT is something you need to know beforehand.

I was watching a DVD last night and noticed that a small old guy's head was the same size as HIS COM. Wouldn't be the same ratio for the perp in this case, but as Matthew pointed out, the vitals probably are.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"5 superficial woulds with a .50 BMG and a .32 ACP to the nose would too!"

My point entirely.

Previous posters were immediately calling the .40 into question and fault, ASSUMING that it was a bullet/round failure, without having much in the way of information on where the shots that hit were placed.

That's just a teeny tiny bit premature, if you ask me.

The only shot placement information in the posted story was sketchy, at best.

Still, given the fact that the officer who delivered the fatal wound had been shot in the neck, I'm still pretty impressed.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Henry,

The latest research is that hypersplatterization only comes into play when shooting drugged Alpine Mountain Goats...

Expect LOTS of magazine articles on this subject over the next few months...

 

[ahenry]

Oh you done it now! You done drug Strasbourg into the mess. Expect to reap the whirlwind.

 

[Blackhawk]

Previous posters were immediately calling the .40 into question and fault, ASSUMING that it was a bullet/round failure, without having much in the way of information on where the shots that hit were placed.

That's just a teeny tiny bit premature, if you ask me.

The only shot placement information in the posted story was sketchy, at best.

Yes, yes, and yes.

Steve came up with some bonus information about the ineffective 5 hits, but I do think that there's a tendency among those who think .50 DEs and .44 Mags with their 1k+ FPE to believe (hope, actually) that if they score any kind of a hit, a BG is going to vaporize. Except when you're dealing with HE warheads that will blow a wing off by just hitting a navigation night, things just don't work that way.

A well placed .22 trumps a nick with a biggun.

 

[TheeBadOne]

I remember one fella telling how superior the .45 ACP is because unlike other rounds when it hits it often hits so hard it spins the body around, breaking bones. Now a really like the .45, but it was hard not to laugh in this fella's face. Not knowing much about guns I had my work cut out for me while I explained the physics required to do what he claimed. :banghead:

 

[bogie]

Maintain meow situational awareness. Because not all the bad guys actually appear to be bad guys...

 

[St. Gunner]

Placement on anything is the name of the game. I shoot alot of wild hogs down this way, bought a .45/70, stoked up some 300gr XTP's to 2400fps and they generated 59lbs of recoil on my end. I took this super monster to the woods, drew down on an 80lb pig and let fly. I took out one shoulder, passed through the ribs on the offside and the critter ran off about 75yds. I've done the same with my .280, .308, and .270 many times and never had to deal with 59lbs of recoil.

You reach a point where to much power doesn't do much good on thin skinned critter four legged and two. Punch a hole with a 300gr .44 mag and a 230gr .45acp in someones lungs without tearing up any major central nervous system parts and do you think the bleed out rate would be any different?

I know a couple guys went and bought .338 win mags to hog hunt with, said you had to have the extra whump and range. But when the range gets out there, or the hogs are running, i'm rolling hogs with 150gr corelokts out of a .280 and they are trying to prep for the recoil.

I carry a .357 mag most of the time now, might go to a 9mm, found a p95 for $225 this week and snatched it up at a pawn shop. I carry a .22 from time to time, and have been known to have a Bianchi IWB stuffed with a Springfield 1911 from time to time. But the one thing is that whatever I am packing, I am shooting as much as I can afford or have time for. I'm really impressed with the Ruger right now, it's light and the dang thing shoots like a house afire. Was ringing 8"x8" plates at 50yds with Speer Lawman ammo the other day.

But confidence has to play a part in what we choose to use, I don't hunt hogs with a .22lr because I know that outside a few yards it is incapable of doing the job. I think some handgun calibers are marginal, truth be told all of them are, isn't a handgun made to get to the rifle? But we have to choose something, and if you can afford to shoot 5 boxes of 9mm ammo a week, instead of 2 boxes of .45acp, then i'd opt to the 9mm, because you will be proficient with it.

I really questioned the ability of some of the people I took the CHL class with, when they shot scores around the 170-180 mark out of 250, when I was shooting 248-250. What happens when you intro real stress to those folks? They needed to be out there with a gun they could afford to shoot, alot. I aint no pistolero but I do practice as much as I can and it shows, if I take a month or more off from it, I can see the results right on the paper.