forged vs billet

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billhoag

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Hello everybody,
I am interested in purchasing a couple of uppers to go with my forged lowers. I know this is not the first time this question has been asked but all the information I have come across is based on opinion and not substantiated with any facts.
I would like to ask some of you knowledgable ar15 gurus if there is any advantage in the billet receivers over the forged sets, and what obout forged lower with billet upper combinations what would be best for maximum accuracy on a ar w lothar walther 20" match barrel.
Thanks,
Bill
 
i don't have the link handy at the moment, but somewhere around here is the description of a test that was run where either the barrel or the handguard were weighted incrementally and the flex in the upper receiver was measured. iirc, the integrated carry handle on A2 style receivers caused them to be very stiff and exhibit minimal flexing, while the flat top styles flexed quite a bit. i honestly don't recall how the billet receivers fared in that test but i THINK they did better than the regular forged flat tops.

in any event, in a few months, i'm planning to do a varmint build. i'll do it with a billet upper and lower.
 
Well taliv that is good news seeing how I just ordered a billet set for a varmint/target rifle that will be my daughters.
The company claims to leave metal in areas to better reinforce the lower. The upper doesn't have a fwd. assist but then neither did my old SP1.
 
I for one would like to know if "forging" aluminum workhardens or improves the material.

Steel has a grain structure after forging, does aluminum?
 
I would say forged aluminum does offer an improvement in strength. Forged pistons are exclusively used in high performance motors - not billet. And forged aluminum wheels are stronger and lighter - spec on many cars now. Not cast - and not billet.

Billet uppers can be built as strong in flex as forged - but the cross section is thicker, and the overall part will weigh more.

Moot point, the barrel profile has a lot more affect on weight than the upper. And the barrel will have a lot more affect on accuracy. For my purposes, unless billet has some exceptional feature to offer, I see them as boutique parts - like custom 1911 slides.
 
if there is any advantage in the billet receivers over the forged sets

None I would take a forged receiver over a billet receiver any day. Why? Because grain structure flow will always be optimized in a forging for the weakest section of the design parameters. In the case of the AR-15, I would think the buffer tube ring at the rear of the lower would be the weakest section given the material (or lack of).

Steel has a grain structure after forging, does aluminum?
Yes aluminum does also.
 
I for one would like to know if "forging" aluminum workhardens or improves the material.

Absolutely.

They don't make billet carabiners (climbing gear) for a good reason. Forgings are STRONG.
 
The forgings are stronger and cheaper. The billet is strong enough and are usually machined with extra, nice to have, features like integral winter trigger guards, flared magwells, whatever. Worth the extra $? Just user preference.
 
w/o getting too techncial, there are different kinds of strengths. i think what many in this thead are pointing out is that POUND FOR POUND, forgings are less likely to break. most of the billet offerings are a good bit thicker in places (to get the same strength), which also makes them heavier and stiffer. the 'stiffer' part in theory could make them a wee bit more accurate
 
I'd have to some pretty convincing tests done that showed the stiffness of the receiver has a significant effect on accuracy. Barrels yes, receivers no.

As said forgings are stronger than billet at the forging process changes the grain structure of the metal. BSW
 
If I'm going to add weight to an AR to increase accuracy I would much rather add material to the barrel to increase barrel stiffness on an AR platform. Than the two piece receiver.
 
well, for the one i'm building in the coming year, i'll be adding weight to both places :)

the fact that i'll be using a very heavy and very long barrel is all the more reason to use a stiffer receiver
 
Castings, forgings and "from billet" are all excellent means of manufacturing metal components.

Each has enjoyed its time in the sun. In the very beginning of metal working items were hammer forged from pieces of metal produced in early hearths. Bits of metal were hammered into larger piece and was shaped by the blacksmith using a hammer on an anvil. As time went on, and hearths improved, pots of metal were smelted. To get use of this pot of metal, molds were made and items were cast.

Casting of metals is an art. In the early days many castings were flawed by cold spots, voids, slag inclusions and the like. If you were making a cooking pot, these might not be deal breakers. When cannons were cast, they often did break explosively causing great loss of life.

Forging produced a denser product without many of the problems associated with castings. It made a stronger product, that was more homogeneous and had a better surface finish. Most forgings, produce many exterior features to net size and shape. Castings can do the same, but until the advent of investment castings, the surface finish was rough as produced by sand casting. As mentioned earlier, forgings either worked by hot or cold processes force the metallic grain structure into one that flows with the shape of the component. This provides greater innate strength.

"From Billet" is a process where the component is machined out of the "Solid Billet." The billet is either a bar or plate that has been extruded or rolled into shape. The advent of modern CNC machines has made it attractive to use this method to produce small lot size components. The CNC is fast, can run unattended or even in "dark shops" if the tooling and component support this process. Think of machining the firing pin from a billet rod as the same as if you whittled it out of a stick. You know wood has a grain and your shaping the pin from the stick cuts through all that grain structure. Same as cutting from the billet.

Properly designed and manufactured, each process, casting, forging or from billet is well suited to most weapon components. Forging; however, in my opinion is far superior for gun barrels and allows a lighter weight component than either of the other two processes. Receivers can be made using either process to good advantage.

Ralph
 
I'd have to some pretty convincing tests done that showed the stiffness of the receiver has a significant effect on accuracy.
Benchresters and long range shooters proved it long ago.
 
It would seem machined from billet with today's CNC processes would make for much tighter tolerances. Does it not?
 
I'd have to some pretty convincing tests done that showed the stiffness of the receiver has a significant effect on accuracy.
Benchresters and long range shooters proved it long ago.

I should have clarified: With gas operated weapons based on service rifles...

BSW
 
X-Rap said:
It would seem machined from billet with today's CNC processes would make for much tighter tolerances. Does it not?

Some folks might run (clean up) the forging with a CNC process to get the same or similar tolerances with considerably more strength ... just a thought. ;)
 
I should have clarified: With gas operated weapons based on service rifles...
OK, but I would believe the stiffness would help there as well. Only my opinion though.
 
Forging causing grain structure to follow general structural shape as the forging looks roughly like finished product, requiring only finish machining it leaves no stress raisers caused by machining cross grain of straght grained billet aluminum. As to whether one or the other is better I can't say for sure, but the magic bullet phrase "billet comes from after market auto parts and means machined from stock material shapes ie: square, hex, round, flats.
 
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