Lets say for example I choose to form 8X57 Mauser from .30-06 brass. At one time I acquired an Arisaka Type 99 with excessive headspace. I was instructed to thread my sizer die fully into the press then back the die off one full turn. I was then instructed to size/set my shoulders and attempt to chamber the brass, threading the sizer die into the press in increments until the brass(trimmed mind you) would chamber in the rifle with light pressure applied to the bolt. If I chamber a round with slight pressure then extract it, re-chambering it I notice zero resistance while turning the bolt into battery. I assume this would creates a tight headspace situation. Asides from a rifle that is properly cleaned and lugs lubed, could this practice lead to lug galling over time?
Forming brass to fit chamber
- Thread starter Visionz45
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rcmodel
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No.
Properly cleaned & lubed, lug galling will not happen, regardless of how much pressure it takes to open or close the bolt.
rc
Properly cleaned & lubed, lug galling will not happen, regardless of how much pressure it takes to open or close the bolt.
rc
I much prefer using a neck expander, then forming an actual 'false shoulder.'
You need to make sure that the head-space failure is caused by wear and not locking lug setback.
Steel does NOT always maintain its strength following a setback.
The bolt lugs may have been comprised from a setback.
You need to make sure that the head-space failure is caused by wear and not locking lug setback.
Steel does NOT always maintain its strength following a setback.
The bolt lugs may have been comprised from a setback.
“Lets say for example I choose to form 8X57 Mauser from .30-06 brass. At one time I acquired an Arisaka Type 99 with excessive headspace. I was instructed to thread my sizer die fully into the press then back the die off one full turn. I was then instructed to size/set my shoulders and attempt to chamber the brass, threading the sizer die into the press in increments until the brass(trimmed mind you) would chamber in the rifle with light pressure applied to the bolt. If I chamber a round with slight pressure then extract it, re-chambering it I notice zero resistance while turning the bolt into battery. I assume this would creates a tight headspace situation. Asides from a rifle that is properly cleaned and lugs lubed, could this practice lead to lug galling over time?”
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model 70, nuff said
The advise given to you by the “I was instructed” person was repeating everything he ever heard about forming cases, all of my dies and presses have threads, that makes them adjustable, just because the thread is 14 per inch does not mean adjustments can not be made in thousands, but in reloading life is made more simple when the instructions are wild guestimates or in 1/4 turns, 1/2 turns, 3/4 turns or turns in thirds and worst, turns in degrees.
The shoulder of the 30/06 is .121 ahead of the shoulder of the 8mm57, the 30/06 shoulder is .076 ahead of the 7.7mm58 Japanese, to form the 7.7mm58or the 8mm57 keep up with the shoulder/case body juncture.
I have forming dies, lots of forming dies, if I had one forming die it would be the 308 W trim/forming did, because??? it is short(er). The 308 case is shorter than the 30/06 from the head of the case to it’s shoulder .388, so when forming 8mm57 cases from 30/06 cases I adjust the gap between the bottom of the 308 forming die to the shell holder .377, a piece of bar stock that measures 3/8 (.375) is perfect when adding .002 thousands shims from a feeler gage. After forming the cases with the forming die, I then full length size the formed cases. BUT!! I never want to pass up an opportunity to form to fit my cases, so instead of mindlessly full length sizing my new3 formed cases to minimum/full length I will again use the feeler gage to adjust the die off the shell holder starting with an .008 thousands shim, after sizing with an .008 thousands gap I attempt chambering the new creation, if it chambers with no resistance the chamber has EXTRA head space, to determine ‘how much? I increase the gap with a thicker feeler gage. I have found 88 Commission rifles with .024 thousands EXTRA head space.
I have 8mm57 and 7mm57 forming dies, when forming 30/06 cases I adjust the forming die off the shell holder with a .010 thousands feeler gage, then size the 8mm57 cases with the same .010 gap, after sizing the cases with the addition length added between the shoulder and the head of the case I chamber the case with out powder/primer, if the case chambers with resistance, I reduce the gap with a thinner feeler gage, I continue this process until I am able to chamber the newly formed case. With a good press, die and shell holder and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. wild guesses are not necessary, adjustments in degrees is not necessary and fraction turns of the die is not necessary.
Then there are those giving advise that have never formed a cases, they never mention the crease in the shoulders, they do claim dents and folds pop out when fired and that does not always happen, also never mentioned is the case condition, back when, I acquired new unfired pulled down military cases for the purpose of forming, necking up, necking down etc., The advantage to the military case when forming the head of the case is not stamped 30/06, and there is unlimited combinations with manufactures and dates, pile the cases in the tumbler then sort by manufacturer and date.
I would suggest new/unfired cases when forming, I would suggest using a feeler gage when adjusting the die to the shell holder and fired cases are not a good choice unless using a forming die, the best investment in dies for forming is the 308 W forming die, if the big gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die makes you dizzy stick with the proper forming die.
F. Guffey
__________________
model 70, nuff said
The advise given to you by the “I was instructed” person was repeating everything he ever heard about forming cases, all of my dies and presses have threads, that makes them adjustable, just because the thread is 14 per inch does not mean adjustments can not be made in thousands, but in reloading life is made more simple when the instructions are wild guestimates or in 1/4 turns, 1/2 turns, 3/4 turns or turns in thirds and worst, turns in degrees.
The shoulder of the 30/06 is .121 ahead of the shoulder of the 8mm57, the 30/06 shoulder is .076 ahead of the 7.7mm58 Japanese, to form the 7.7mm58or the 8mm57 keep up with the shoulder/case body juncture.
I have forming dies, lots of forming dies, if I had one forming die it would be the 308 W trim/forming did, because??? it is short(er). The 308 case is shorter than the 30/06 from the head of the case to it’s shoulder .388, so when forming 8mm57 cases from 30/06 cases I adjust the gap between the bottom of the 308 forming die to the shell holder .377, a piece of bar stock that measures 3/8 (.375) is perfect when adding .002 thousands shims from a feeler gage. After forming the cases with the forming die, I then full length size the formed cases. BUT!! I never want to pass up an opportunity to form to fit my cases, so instead of mindlessly full length sizing my new3 formed cases to minimum/full length I will again use the feeler gage to adjust the die off the shell holder starting with an .008 thousands shim, after sizing with an .008 thousands gap I attempt chambering the new creation, if it chambers with no resistance the chamber has EXTRA head space, to determine ‘how much? I increase the gap with a thicker feeler gage. I have found 88 Commission rifles with .024 thousands EXTRA head space.
I have 8mm57 and 7mm57 forming dies, when forming 30/06 cases I adjust the forming die off the shell holder with a .010 thousands feeler gage, then size the 8mm57 cases with the same .010 gap, after sizing the cases with the addition length added between the shoulder and the head of the case I chamber the case with out powder/primer, if the case chambers with resistance, I reduce the gap with a thinner feeler gage, I continue this process until I am able to chamber the newly formed case. With a good press, die and shell holder and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage. wild guesses are not necessary, adjustments in degrees is not necessary and fraction turns of the die is not necessary.
Then there are those giving advise that have never formed a cases, they never mention the crease in the shoulders, they do claim dents and folds pop out when fired and that does not always happen, also never mentioned is the case condition, back when, I acquired new unfired pulled down military cases for the purpose of forming, necking up, necking down etc., The advantage to the military case when forming the head of the case is not stamped 30/06, and there is unlimited combinations with manufactures and dates, pile the cases in the tumbler then sort by manufacturer and date.
I would suggest new/unfired cases when forming, I would suggest using a feeler gage when adjusting the die to the shell holder and fired cases are not a good choice unless using a forming die, the best investment in dies for forming is the 308 W forming die, if the big gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die makes you dizzy stick with the proper forming die.
F. Guffey
“At one time I acquired an Arisaka Type 99 with excessive headspace”
How much excessive head space did the 7.7mm58 chamber have, again, forming with the bolt is not necessary, even when using the bolt to form cases after forming the ‘former’ does not know how much head space the chamber has. I believe forming cases by closing the bolt is a bad habit, closing the bolt with difficult on a live round without knowing why the bolt is difficult to close is worst than a bad habit, because? of a long list of causes.
F. Guffey
How much excessive head space did the 7.7mm58 chamber have, again, forming with the bolt is not necessary, even when using the bolt to form cases after forming the ‘former’ does not know how much head space the chamber has. I believe forming cases by closing the bolt is a bad habit, closing the bolt with difficult on a live round without knowing why the bolt is difficult to close is worst than a bad habit, because? of a long list of causes.
F. Guffey
bigedp51
member
My "magic" feeler gauges are shaped like precision made washers and help insure minimum case and bullet run out. 
Below for partial full length resizing.
For adjusting the die for correct headspace for each rifle. (shims are from .003 to .010 thick)
Or even better than shims are the custom shell holders
I haven't used a set of feeler gauges since the last time I adjusted the valves on my 225 cid 1974 Duster Mr. fguffey.
Below for partial full length resizing.
For adjusting the die for correct headspace for each rifle. (shims are from .003 to .010 thick)
Or even better than shims are the custom shell holders
I haven't used a set of feeler gauges since the last time I adjusted the valves on my 225 cid 1974 Duster Mr. fguffey.
Forming brass to fit chamber
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Lets say for example I choose to form 8X57 Mauser from .30-06 brass. At one time I acquired an Arisaka Type 99 with excessive headspace. I was instructed to thread my sizer die fully into the press then back the die off one full turn. I was then instructed to size/set my shoulders and attempt to chamber the brass, threading the sizer die into the press in increments until the brass(trimmed mind you) would chamber in the rifle with light pressure applied to the bolt. If I chamber a round with slight pressure then extract it, re-chambering it I notice zero resistance while turning the bolt into battery. I assume this would creates a tight headspace situation. Asides from a rifle that is properly cleaned and lugs lubed, could this practice lead to lug galling over.
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It took rcmodel 2 minutes to read the OP’s question and respond with “NO”, the OP was given some bad advise, before he got here and after he got here, I believe brickeyee is correct. The OP was advised to back the die out 1 turn, then size/form the 30/06 case with a 7.7 Japanese full length sizer die,
‘NOW TO YOU NON-FORMING RELOADERS’: One turn of the die is .071+.000429, the bolt on the 7.7 Japanese rifle rotates 1/4 turn, for the lugs to engage the advance per turn of the bolt would have to be .285 or about 4 turns of a die. SO? How far does the bolt advance forward while rotating 1/4 of a turn? And I ask how in the world can someone come up with a response in 2 minutes without wondering how the bolt was pushed forward enough to engage, without the leverage offered by a press?
I visited a Manufacturer/Distributor of reloading equipment, I went to the technical department, I ask a question, the answer started with “All you have to do is purchase a full length sizer die set and etc., etc., etc..” When he finished I said “You have never formed a case, have you”? and he said “NO” I was forming cases by creating a shoulder .192 thousands further back than the shoulder of the 30/06, the chances of the case creasing before the shoulder was formed on once fired cases would be as high as 50%, anyhow I purchased an RCBS case forming die, short forming dies are my favorite.
Ed., again, I am not materialistic, I have no way of knowing if you reload and own all the tools you advertise, or if you talk about reloading and only have pictures, the OP wanted to know about the advise he received, it took rcmodel 2 minutes to read and respond. The OP could take your advise and spend $44.00+ for Reddings Competition shell holders, $12.00 for Skip’s shims, but, after spending the money he would be no better off than when he started because he does not know how to form a case.
Volumes have been written about ‘in-line’, alignment, run-out, I am beginning to think I am the only person that can determine alignment between the ram (shell holder)and press head (die), I am the only one that understands ‘no-load’ I am not ‘a trained reader?’ but, I understand volumes written with qualifiers like, could, it is possible, may have, could cause, could create a problem, it is believed.
F. Guffey
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Lets say for example I choose to form 8X57 Mauser from .30-06 brass. At one time I acquired an Arisaka Type 99 with excessive headspace. I was instructed to thread my sizer die fully into the press then back the die off one full turn. I was then instructed to size/set my shoulders and attempt to chamber the brass, threading the sizer die into the press in increments until the brass(trimmed mind you) would chamber in the rifle with light pressure applied to the bolt. If I chamber a round with slight pressure then extract it, re-chambering it I notice zero resistance while turning the bolt into battery. I assume this would creates a tight headspace situation. Asides from a rifle that is properly cleaned and lugs lubed, could this practice lead to lug galling over.
_________________________________________________________________
It took rcmodel 2 minutes to read the OP’s question and respond with “NO”, the OP was given some bad advise, before he got here and after he got here, I believe brickeyee is correct. The OP was advised to back the die out 1 turn, then size/form the 30/06 case with a 7.7 Japanese full length sizer die,
‘NOW TO YOU NON-FORMING RELOADERS’: One turn of the die is .071+.000429, the bolt on the 7.7 Japanese rifle rotates 1/4 turn, for the lugs to engage the advance per turn of the bolt would have to be .285 or about 4 turns of a die. SO? How far does the bolt advance forward while rotating 1/4 of a turn? And I ask how in the world can someone come up with a response in 2 minutes without wondering how the bolt was pushed forward enough to engage, without the leverage offered by a press?
I visited a Manufacturer/Distributor of reloading equipment, I went to the technical department, I ask a question, the answer started with “All you have to do is purchase a full length sizer die set and etc., etc., etc..” When he finished I said “You have never formed a case, have you”? and he said “NO” I was forming cases by creating a shoulder .192 thousands further back than the shoulder of the 30/06, the chances of the case creasing before the shoulder was formed on once fired cases would be as high as 50%, anyhow I purchased an RCBS case forming die, short forming dies are my favorite.
Ed., again, I am not materialistic, I have no way of knowing if you reload and own all the tools you advertise, or if you talk about reloading and only have pictures, the OP wanted to know about the advise he received, it took rcmodel 2 minutes to read and respond. The OP could take your advise and spend $44.00+ for Reddings Competition shell holders, $12.00 for Skip’s shims, but, after spending the money he would be no better off than when he started because he does not know how to form a case.
Volumes have been written about ‘in-line’, alignment, run-out, I am beginning to think I am the only person that can determine alignment between the ram (shell holder)and press head (die), I am the only one that understands ‘no-load’ I am not ‘a trained reader?’ but, I understand volumes written with qualifiers like, could, it is possible, may have, could cause, could create a problem, it is believed.
F. Guffey
bigedp51
member
Your right you don't know if I reload just like I don't know if you reload fguffey, so let me clear things up.
1. You don't post photos and I do. (I doubt if you know how)
2. If you see fingers in the photos they belong to me.
3. We, meaning the forum members here don't know if you even own a feeler gauge.
4. Question fguffey.........do you actually think your the only person in the entire world who reloads or are you just delusional.
P.S. I'm very materialistic and own more than a feeler gauge, here is a fraction of my gages and measuring devices
What would I use this for fguffey? Being materialistic as I am.
And just to "torque you off" fguffey here is a photo of my 1973 Rockchucker press
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