Found on Glock Talk Forum:Slide Slam on 1911

[Brian D.]

Old Fuff:

Yes, I did read your entire post last time (and this time too; for that matter I always read the entirety of your posts.) My only points concerning your valuable contribution were about:

1) Most R.O.s at action matches would be taken aback to say the least at seeing the "hold trigger while dropping slide" technique. As you doubtless are aware this was/is a habit favored by Bullseye shooters, among others mayhaps.
2) The aforementioned method would be less-than-desirable if employed in matches where shooter movement and reloads on the fly were required.

Maybe I was somewhat less than clear, as often happens in these discussions. Also, Falling Plate matches such as mentioned by Jammer Six don't usually require any shooter movement under the clock. Could be that I was just thinking about Action shooting in all its various guises, since most such competitors engage in more than one style of match.

Anyhow I'm about done in this thread, and suspect that most everybody else who has contributed so far is too. How's about WE ALL just shut up, step back, and let some new "voices" chime in? Naw, that'd be too much to ask eh?

 

[Jammer Six]

How's about WE ALL just shut up, step back, and let some new "voices" chime in?

Sounds good to me.

You go ahead. If I'm not there in five minutes, you start shutting up without me.

I asked the range officer at our plate league tonight, point blank, if we had to drop the slide at full speed, and he said no.

I was wrong about that point.

That means, of course, that you are all going to have to live with both the shame of forcing me to admit a mistake, (my second this year, and it's only early December) and the fact that now, I drop my slide at full speed simply because that's the way I want to do it.

Besides, if I ruin the weapon by dropping the slide, I can always just sell it to one of you guys.

 

[Old Fuff]

Brian D:


Yup ..... Nuff' said. :banghead:

 

[1911Tuner]

Shazam!

Wotta fight these things get started!

Double-Naught...Ball-Peen hammers..About 48 Rc will do.

Bill Z...Amen! Metal to metal impact peens the steel.

Jammer...Magnaflux it and report back!


Tam! You're right! I decidedly do NOT want one that's been whacked "several hundred times." Hint: The harder the steel, the easier it is to crack...discounting High Speed Steel...which is pretty tuff stuff. Go and hit a file with a hammer and then hit an equally thick piece of flat 1018 stock.

Trigger jobs trigger jobs! Who's talkin' about trigger jobs? Not eye.
The lower barrel lug is the focal point. Short hammer hooks, dinky sear angles and wimpy mainsprings produce a trigger on an autopistol that belongs on a revolver. These things essentially put the fire control group into an out of spec condition. In this condition, inertial bounce within the group may well be an issue. If the hammer hooks are in-spec...at least .025 long and undersquare, the sear primary angle is to spec in width, the mainspring is to spec at 23 pounds rating, and the sear spring provides the correct tension on sear, trigger and disconnect...inertial bounce probably won't happen and wouldn't hurt much if it did. The issue is with the lower barrel lug. Slamming
the slide does some degree of damage...and it's cumulative. Steel just ain't
gonna heal.

Jeeeeez...Slam'em if'n ya gottem, gents!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Why would you want to do something that has no useful purpose and will accelerate wear??????

Accelerates wear?

Hell, firing the gun does that!

The reason some of us ask this question -- however stupid it might seem to some of you -- is that many of us didn't start out with 1911s, have long shot guns where it is NOT a topic of debate, and we're not sure that this activity accelerates wear or otherwise causes harm. (And it HAS a useful purpose if you are participating in any of the gun games that require it. IDPA does, too.)

Old Fuff and Tuner make good arguments, and I'm still listening. But I may give serious attention to holding the trigger back, in the future, when I let the slide go forward at the end of a course of fire. That's not a big extra effort on my part, and I can't see where it would cause any harm. I could do that with ALL of my guns...and have a single method, as well.

(Except those blessed S&Ws with the mag disconnect... got to do it differently, there.)

 

[Old Fuff]

Be sure you (and any others that might be interested) understand the drill:

1. Remove the magazine.

2. Pull the slide backwards, and either lock it back, or hold it while you inspect the chamber to be sure it isn't loaded.

3. After making sure the chamber is empty, hold the trigger back while lowering the slide - either by dropping it, or by easing it forward.

4. After the slide has returned to battery, either lock the hammer with the manual safety. or lower the hammer while holding on to the hammer spur.

At all times be sure that the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction.

 

[R.H. Lee]

we're not sure that this activity accelerates wear or otherwise causes harm.

Some of you might not be sure. Re-read (or maybe actually read) Tuner's many posts on this subject. (Hint: he explains in great detail, repeatedly, why it is harmful.)

I can't see where it would cause any harm

Well, then, like the man said "If you got 'em.....slam 'em"

Still waiting for Jammer's magnaflux photos........................

 

[Jammer Six]

Still waiting for Jammer's magnaflux photos........................

I admire your patience.

I have a way to reduce your expected wait, but do you prefer waiting?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

Refusing to hit the release on an empty chamber means my gun stays functional for a longer period of time. I see no downside to this.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

we're not sure that this activity accelerates wear or otherwise causes harm.
---
Some of you might not be sure. Re-read (or maybe actually read) Tuner's many posts on this subject. (Hint: he explains in great detail, repeatedly, why it is harmful.)

Give me a break, will you?!

Not everybody has been doing 1911s for ever.

Not everybody here has been reading this forum forever.

Not everybody appreciates that 1911Tuner and Old Fuff are the experts they appear to be...

Some folks believe that experts at companies like COLT know what they're talking about.

My comments were explaining WHY FOLKS like me, who have not been privvy to the RECEIVED TRUTH as presented here -- who have had NO bad experience, and who have been given contrary testimony and evidence by seeming experts -- might find the explanations here to be confusing or contradictory or just seem down-right non-sensical.

I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of those who claim the practice of dropping the slide as first discussed is bad have NEVER. themselves, experienced the problems it can/might cause, and that most have probably only HEARD about it anecdotally. If it were an everyday problem, there'd be less resistance to the "solution."

I'm not disagreeing with the recommended behaviors and practices, only explaining that just because some of us didn't come into this debate believing as YOU DO, that doesn't mean we're all complete idiots.

Tuner and Old Fuff offer good arguments and an alternative way of handling the gun that doesn't present problems. (As I noted in my previous reply, I can do that, and will start trying to build that method into my gun handling practices.)

I can't see where it would cause any harm
---

Well, then, like the man said "If you got 'em.....slam 'em"

You seem to think I didn't read what had been previously written, and were implicitly critical. Its just as obvious that YOU didn't read what I wrote or you wouldn't have responded as you did...

The quote above was taken totally out of context. The phrase "I can't see where it would cause any harm" -- was clearly a reference to practice of holding the trigger back when the slide was dropped or slowly moved forward...

 

[Intune]

I am far from the resident expert in this matter but I do have some experience as both an armorer in the Army and a civilian. One word sums it up for me. LISTEN.

Listen to your 1911 when you drop the slide on an empty chamber. Now listen when you drop the slide that chambers a round. Hear the difference? I ease mine forward on an unloaded pistol. My respect for that tool will allow me no other choice. Do with yours as you will. But, if or when a failure occurs do not blame the weapon for your lack of “slide†restraint! IF the potential is there to harm the weapon prudence on my part is a good enough reason for me to negate the practice.

And please, don’t let this post tighten anyone’s undies. It’s your tool. Treat it as you will. Some people will leave a hammer in the yard for a month and then blame it for rusting. To each his/her own. There you have it. I kept silent as long as I could. Back to the professionals…

 

[Tamara]

Walt Sherrill

My comments were explaining WHY FOLKS like me, who have not been privvy to the RECEIVED TRUTH as presented here --

Heh.

I brought this thread up in the shop where I work today. It caused an interesting discussion. Both 'smiths agreed that, if taken to excess, it could theoretically cause problems. One pointed out that "if you were to drop the slide over and over on an empty chamber, like I'm doin' right now while checking for hammer follow, it could maybe, eventually, cause problems..."

These poor clowns were obviously in need of the Revealed Truth.

I know what I know, and I've gleaned what I can glean.

 

[Intune]

I've always found that gleaning from folks who actually work in the proscribed area is good gleaning. Glean on sister! Let those who refuse the gleaning glean not. For so it was written, so it is done. Or, so the slide slides and the hammer falls.

 

[Dave Sample]

Ho Hum. Don Williams of the Action Works disagrees with me just like Bll Z and a lot of others here. So are we still pals? Of course! Why? Because the subject is more forum BS and can not be proved one way or another.
Has Old Fuff ever shot an IPSC match? I doubt it. Has Tuner ever shot a high end pistol built like I build them. I know he hasn't.
Here's the drill so you will know how we do these things.
At the start of your stage the range officer will instruct you to load your weapon in some colorful manner and the way I do it is to draw my 1911 and point it down range and lock the slide back with the slide stop from underneath the front of the slide. I then insert a magazine loaded with ONE round in it. I release the slide with the stop and then drop an empty magazine and put it in my hip pocket. Thumb safety goes back up. I slam in a full magazine and holster my 1911. The beep goes off and I shoot my Stage and then wait for the range officer to tell me to off load my 1911 and show him/her an empty chamber. I drop the magazine and kick out any round that might be in the gun and lock the slide back with the slide stop. After they are certain that the weapon is indeed empty, the command is given to re holster an empty weapon and I drop the slide with the slide stop and dry fire the gun while it is pointing down range, and put in back in the holster. Very quick. Very simple. Very easy.
I handle the gun from the front grasping grooves during these matches so that if the unthinkable happens and I have an OD, no part of my hand is going to even get even a whiff of smoke.
I do not keep track of the stages and matches that I have shot. All I can really tell you is that I spent 5 years and $20,000.00 trying to win one match and only came in once with a 1st in "C" Class with my 10mm Centaur. I had at least 6 of my own guns competing against me on any given day and they almost always beat me because the shooters were younger and had better reflexes and great eyes for seeing targets. I shot at least one match a week during those years and sometimes two. I have never been DQ'd
I am not imaginary and only speak on these places from personal experience and that seems to drive some of you nuts. If I don't know something, I do not try to BS my way through it. I am not hypothetical. I am a real dude. My hammers do not follow regardless of hoew I handle the guns I build and as far as I know, Tamara is one of very few people here who has any kind of what used to be called "Common Sense." If your 1911 is so delicate and tender, why maybe you should just hang it on the wall and admire it from afar. Me? I shoot mine and dare them to break. And if they do, I know how to fix them.

 

[1911Tuner]

Clews

Quote:

>>One pointed out that "if you were to drop the slide over and over on an empty chamber, like I'm doin' right now<<
________________________

Tamara...A couple of questions to satisfy my own curiosity, please.

How did he hold the pistol while he dropped the slide over and over and over? One hand or both?

Firm grip or loose?

Did he extend his arm(s) in a firing grip...or was he hand-overing the slide with the left side of the pistol facing him when he tripped the stop?

Did he hold the trigger back...or did he let the trigger reset before he tripped the stop?

Did he hold the trigger back as he racked the slide to cock the hammer...
or not?

Now, Tamara tell me true...'Tis important, you see.
________________________

Dave...Please tell our audience how it is that you've come to know what kinds of pistols that I've fired...Please?


Standin' by...

 

[Jammer Six]

Dave Real Dude Sample

Dude!

At the start of your stage the range officer will instruct you to load your weapon in some colorful manner and the way I do it is to draw my 1911 and point it down range and lock the slide back with the slide stop from underneath the front of the slide. The thumb safety goes up and locks in place. I then insert a magazine loaded with ONE round in it. I drop the thumb safety, release the slide with the stop and then drop an empty magazine and put it in my hip pocket. Thumb safety goes back up. I slam in a full magazine and holster my 1911.

Real Dude, if your thumb safety will lock up when your slides are locked back, your 1911's are, in fact, different from any 1911's I have ever seen.

My milspec's safety won't engage when the slide is locked back.

Did you make a mistake? Is this a Real Dude story?

Do you really do it this way?

 

[1911Tuner]

Simplified Concept

Just one more try at this...and I'll keep my peace.

Barrel in hand...slip the slidestop pin through the link. Swing the pin into the
curvature in the lug feet. That point of contact is all that stops the slide's momentum, other than the friction of the slide and frame rails...which is minimal.

Study the construction of the lug with the slidestop pin pushing on the bottom area of the lug. Is an image of a lever and fulcrum starting to emerge? No? Keep lookin'. Grasp the barrel in the center and push on the slidestop. What happens? Muzzle rotate downward? When it's in the gun,
the muzzle is captive by the barrel bushing, and can't roll with the punch.
Somethin's gotta give eventually.

When the slide's movement is abruptly arrested by that point of contact, there are three separate kinds of force applied in three different ways.

Impact at the point of contact. Shock.

Shearing force against the whole lug.

Levering force that is concentrated on the front junction of lug and barrel.
This one holds the single greatest potential for damage, and the one that I have seen most often. The lug actually being pulled away from the barrel...
and not just on the "Old Softies."

Does anybody really believe that this combination of influences isn't going to hurt anything at all?

Ladies and laddies...Slam'em if ya got'em!

 

[WhoKnowsWho]

My milspec's safety won't engage when the slide is locked back.

Some custom jobs include cutting the top of the thumb safety that engages the slide so that the thumb safety can be engaged when the slide is forward or locked back.

 

[Old Fuff]

I am amused by Mr. Sample’s presumptions about what I may or may not have done, what kind of guns I have fired or otherwise used.

As for IPSC - I quit about the same time Jeff Cooper did, and for much the same reasons. At the present time I have little interest in it.

My personal sidearms are not, and never have been modified so that the safety lock can be applied when the slide is out of battery. Browning designed the safety the way he did for sound reasons - it was to prevent a holster or anything else from pushing the slide slightly backwards when the pistol was being carried cocked & locked, and therefore be disabled when it was drawn.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Tamara said:

I brought this thread up in the shop where I work today. It caused an interesting discussion. Both 'smiths agreed that, if taken to excess, it could theoretically cause problems

Yah, ok, but what kinda 'smiths? There are 'smiths, then there are "Pistolsmiths". Only real "pistolsmiths" know what they're talking about when it comes to 1911's. I know that's true cause I read it on THR.

 

[rbernie]

Wow

This thread won't die, and I don't understand why.

This all started with a posting declaring Colt's position on whether dropping the slide at full speed on an empty 1911-pattern pistol was a good or bad idea. Various alternate opinions chimed in, and three camps emerged - the ones who thought it was bad, the ones who thought it was OK, and the ones who were on the fence and were trying to learn what's best.

The folks that advocate NOT dropping the slide at full speed on a 1911-pattern pistol have stated their reasons. Some have stated it several times, in a couple of different ways, and with some technical observations. These folks have also conceded that anyone can do whatever they want with their personal pistols. The folks that think that it's OK have also stated their reasons. Interestingly, most of these folks haven't really ever indicated that the caution advised by the 'don't do it' camp is always an acceptable alternate approach, but c'est la vie, I guess.

But somehow, this all isn't good enough. Some folks just seem bound and determined to insist that EVERYBODY here agree with their position, and it's starting to get a bit less than 'High Road' around here. I'm not sure what is gained by the exchanges at this point, but here we are.

Blah, blah, blah.

Do it if ya want. Maybe your pistol will be OK. Maybe it won't. Maybe frogs will grow wings and won't have to bump their butts on the ground when they hop - who knows? Life's always a crap-shoot, and nothing is ever clean cut black-n-white. As far as I'm concerned, I have seen and heard enough reasons why it's probably not the greatest thing to do if I want to be able to get a long and uneventful life from my 1911-pattern pistols, and I also have some reason to believe that my pistols won't irrevocably fly apart if I occasionally just let things fly.

I have taken my 1911's apart and studied the parts and their relationships and done my best due-diligence to imagine the dynamics involved. I've read Kuhnhausen and Wilson and such. I am not an expert, but I have a brain. I sometimes drop the slide in an uncontrolled manner when I'm in a hurry and am not paying attention. When I think of it, I try not to do it. I've looked at the modified Browning-style barrels in my non-1911-pattern pistols and gleaned how they might differ in this regard than the 1911 (and perhaps why they chose to use a redesigned link mechanism). I don't worry about this as much with my CZs and such as I do with my 1911's.

But that's me. Y'all do whatever you want. But can we please at least try to keep this thread from becoming so, well, un-HighRoad-ish?

 

[1911Tuner]

Won't Die

Howdy bernie!

This one won't die 'cause it's like that Chevy vs Ford thing.

But lookin' back through the pages, I can't find anybody who got their knickers in a knot and started hollerin' "Idiot' and "Moron"...
so it's still pretty High Road-ish...at least for now.

Consider that maybe the reason that some keep statin' the point is 'cause they're lookin' for a way to get the point across...like that Geometery teacher that I had that wouldn't give up tryin' to teach me that pie are square
even though I kept tellin' him that pie ain't square. Pie are round!
Cornbread are square! All we're tryin' to do is teach, and convince the
future students who stumble on this will understand better. See?

Now...Whoever it is that's holdin' that gun to rbernie's head and makin' him read this thread needs to stop it....That ain't takin' the high road! Let him read somethin' else!

Cheers!

 

[rbernie]

it's still pretty High Road-ish...at least for now

Dunno - between JammerSix's 'let's throw gas on the flames' comments and the running exchanges between you and Sample and Fuff, it sure sounded like we'd kinda lost headway....

Whoever it is that's holdin' that gun to rbernie's head and makin' him read this thread needs to stop it....That ain't takin' the high road! Let him read somethin' else!

<shrug> I can certainly stop reading and go back to spendin' most of my time in the Rifle forum. I *was* reading this thread to learn something new. Guess we'd all rather stand around and stick out our tongues at each other.

 

[1911Tuner]

Flames?

Nahhhh. Besides...there just ain't a lotta new or fresh information on this age-old debate...but I thought my experiment might offer a new perspective
into what gets beat up and how bad.

Besides...point/counterpoint... civil debate and agreements to disagree is kinda what the forums are for...Ain't it?

Jammer?....Well, Jammer's got a kinda sideways sense of humor. It came from
jumpin' outta airplanes over at Ft. Campbell and landin' on his head. He don't mean no harm. Dave is Dave, and Fuff is...Well, Fuff's been hidin' in a cave since about 1950. He don't get out much, and I've done things to these pistols outta plain boredom that would cause ol' JMB to spin in his grave.

 

[Dave Sample]

I said that when I loaded the ONE round, I dropped the slide and the safety went back up. That is automatic with experienced gun handlers.
Tuner: you have said over and over that you do not do high end guns and prefer to turn junk into better junk. Since you are not real, I can imagine anything I want about you and the Old Fuff. Have you shot a 1911 that I built? The last time I asked you that you said NO. Until you have that pleasure, we will put that subject to rest.
I do agree with Old Fuff about this thread. We have beat it to death and no one has learned anything except other peoples opinions on a rumor started about smiths who can't do a decent trigger job that will take a licking and keep on ticking. It is just another "Old Wives Tale" that creates endless "go nowhere threads on Forums." It's hard to prove something that doesn't exist. 1911's are built by people like me to be tough and long lasting. My clients expect mine to go 75,000-100,000 without a hick up. So far, so good. The difference between Old Fuff and Tuner and myself, is that I can put my guns where my mouth is and and they can't. I will be at the Shot Show with them "so come and see a fat old man sometime, little Sister".