fps variance on .45 ACP

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JimGun

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running a clip of 13 rounds of .45 ACP reloads through my chronograph, I had a spread from 670 fps to 728 fps using Ranier .230 RN on 5.1 grs Win 231.
When reloading tonight, I measured everything I could to see if I could account for the variance. I noticed that the Ranier .230 RN had a variance in length of between .661 to .668. Since the C.O.L. was 1.260, it would mean that the space in the casing was varied. Could this account for such a variance in FPS? I've never really checked things this closely before. Is there anything else that could account for such a wide variance?:scrutiny:
 
Is there anything else that could account for such a wide variance?
There is a long list of such things. I would start with a good quality bullet first and work from there.
 
58 fps is not a wide extreme spread. Factory target wadcutters are 25-50 fps to my experience. As jibjab said there are so many variables to consider. Throw out the fastest ansd the slowest and what's the es then? More importantly, how does the load shoot? If it shoots accurately for what you want to do the es doesn't make a difference.

The lowest es I've ever loaded is 21 fps with a 308 load. It really doesn't shoot any better than a grain in charge weight less which has a 78 fps es.
 
Range brass of all different makes will do this. Different wall thickness grip the bullet different each time. The crimp can make a big difference even in the exact same brass/load using lite target loads like 3.6 to 3.8 gr Bullseye. Heavy crimps, slower fps. If your brass is new and of the same lot, then bullet set back on hitting the feed ramp. My cast 185gr gave a wider spread then 200gr. Target loads are loaded with Alliant Bullseye Powder. Heavy loads get Unique.
I would start with a good quality bullet first and work from there.
Just might be it.
 
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Like GRIZZ22 posted, 58 FPS difference is not that bad. Did they shoot well? If they did, quit worrying. W-231 is very good with lead in .45 ACP. AA #2 is another good one, and it can bring the ES & SD numbers down (even in mixed range brass), but won't shoot any better than W-231 in most cases.
 
Jimgun...My Kimber (3" barrel) and my favorite handload are averaging 40.1 to 95.7 ES and is producing five shot 2" groups at 25 yards benchresting. Don't worry about the ES. Yes it would be nice to see perfect ES readings (it would mean I'm perfect too:evil:), but the end result is where and how consistent the round is on target...
 
Even a 58 fps ES could be caused by metering in the powder measure. They are not exact. Has anyone tried to be absolutely accurate in their powder drop ? Has anyone bothered to trickle a charge to chrony a pistol load ? I have enough lead to waste on the chrony already.
 
Yup...I do Riss...I weigh every powder charge I drop in each case. All weighed on a RCBS Powder Pro Digital scale. It makes little or no difference. Look somewhere else or don't get an ulser over it...
 
58fps isn't that large, but I regularly get ES numbers in the teens, and sometimes single-digits, using fine ball powders. Most of my loading these days is with the AA family of 2/5/7/9, and I haven't seen an ES above the 20's in a long time. With Unique I didn't worry about 60-70's. Didn't seem to make much difference in the shooting.
 
ES (Extreme Spread) is not a particularly good measure of dispersion. Better is SD (Standard Deviation), or even MAD (Mean Absolute Deviation). You can even do better with tossing your high and low velocities, and seeing what the ES is between those rounds.

All it takes is one--one--round out of spec, and it looks like the whole batch is bad when you use ES as your standard.

Suppose you had these velocities:

850
846
864
840
858
859
841
and
798

Using ES, it looks like the range is 66 (864-798). But toss the low number and what you see is that the rounds are pretty close (864-840).

The problem with ES is that it can make the entire batch look bad, when just one or two rounds are bad.

If you want to use a statistic to determine the consistency of your ammo, use SD, or ES removing the top and bottom outlier, or MAD.

And as a side note, unless you're assembling ammo like a match shooter (identical brass, match-grade seating of bullet, individually measured powder loads to a high degree of accuracy, matching bullet weights, etc.), you're simply going to have variation. Small variations in the parameters *can* add up--things like OAL, powder drop, size of case, the case volume, bullet variation, bullet weight etc.

And if you by random chance have a round whose parameters add up to low or high, that's really the source of the extreme variation.
 
Try shooting a 22LR with good ammo over your crony and see how consistant it reads, the 22 normally gives pretty good ES. Most chronies are accurate to within +/- 2% which is a pretty good chunk of the 58fps variance you recorded. Like the other posts have said, there are too many possiblities to blame just one thing.
 
Thanks for all the great advise. In particular mongoose33 for giving the definition for ES. I'm on the lookout now for a definition of SD and MAD.
Thanks again, very much.
 
I'm on the lookout now for a definition of SD and MAD.

What can make this confusing is the use of two terms that are synonymous: Mean and Average. So recognize they're just being used interchangeably to make things a bit easier to follow.

***********
MAD: Mean Absolute Deviation. This is the mean of the deviations from the average of all data points. In other words, what is the average deviation from the overall mean.

Example (small number of data points):

12 14 16 18

Sum of the items is 60. Mean of the items is 15 (60/4).

How far, on the average is each data point from the overall mean?

12-15= -3
14-15= -1
16-15= 1
18-15= 3

The mean "absolute" deviation is the absolute value of the difference, so the negatives become positives. Thus the four absolute deviations from the mean are

3, 1, 1, and 3.

The sum of those absolute deviations is 8. The mean absolute deviation, then, is 8/4, or 2.

********************

SD: Standard Deviation. It's a little trickier. SD is the square root of the average *squared* deviation from the overall mean, as opposed to the average *absolute* deviation from the overall mean.

It has value in statistics as it describes a distribution that is normally distributed (meaning a bell-shaped curve of specific characteristics). It's simply a different measure of dispersion, except for this: If you can assume your dispersion of velocities is "normal," meaning approximating a bell-shaped distribution, the standard deviation means this:

In a normal distribution:

--About 68 percent (specifically 68.26 percent) of all data points will be within 1 standard deviation of the mean (that's both above and below).

--About 95 percent of all data points (specifically 95.44 percent) will be within two standard deviations of the mean. (both above and below the mean).

For this reason, the standard deviation has more value (to those versed in statistics) because it gives an indication of how closely the distribution centers around the mean.

It gives more weight to the values further from the mean (that's what the squaring does). So, if most values are close, they're accounted for that way; if further, more weight is given to them.

In our example from above:

The average *squared* deviation from the mean:

12-15= -3 9
14-15= -1 1
16-15= 1 1
18-15= 3 9

The sum of those squared deviations is 20. The average is 20/4 or 5. The square root of 5 is about 2.24.

You'll note it's higher than the MAD, but that's to be expected, as it's assuming a bell-shaped distribution.


*****************

Conceptually, the Mean Absolute Deviation is a little easier to understand; however, the Standard Deviation has more value as it can be used to forecast just how good the overall distribution of velocities would be.

For all intents and purposes, Extreme Spread is worthless unless it's very tight. You can't know if a wide ES is due to the data points being all spread out more-or-less evenly, or if there's just one wild one making the range much wider.

While the Standard Deviation will take into account extreme values, it will not overweight them so much as to make the statistic valueless as is the case with Extreme Spread.


Two more things about this:

First, there's always the question of how many data points you need for these statistics to be valuable (meaning, stable). I generally shoot 10 at a load that's close to my "working" or potentially max load. But usually I'll start low, shoot I'll shoot 5 at the low level and look at the Chrono readings to get a sense of where I am. Then the next level up, and maybe 5 more.

These are what I consider my "safety" loads, i.e., starting at the bottom, at what should be a safe pressure. I'll shoot them through the Chrono and see where I am. I'm not quantifying a load (as this is a low load to begin with), but rather ensuring I'm starting safe.

When I get to a higher powder charges, I load 10, and that's my basic test number. IMO, anything much less than 10 is going to be relatively unreliable.

I should note I've been doing statistics for 30+ years, teaching and using them, so I can look at numbers and get a sense of how stable they are. Less experienced stat users might want to shoot 15 at one load. But 10 usually lets me see where I am.


Second, in the final analysis, all measures of dispersion only have value in comparison to some standard. That standard might be what you typically get as data, or some threshold or what others may indicate as "good enough."


You'll find that being able to see how fast your loads are will really help you in reloading. Try chronographing some commercial ammo first, then compare yours. I think you'll be surprised.
 
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and another thank you, mongoose33

for a clearly-comprehensible writeup on MAD-SD analyses for shooters.

Jim H.
 
Yes, very nice mongoose33.

I saved your post, even though it made my head hurt to read it. :D

I haven't done any real math in 30 plus years. :)
 
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