Fragility of Colt DA lockwork

[Otony]

A week or two back the subject of Colt DA revolvers came up and I expressed the opinion that Colt DA lockwork could be fragile in general.

Of course I managed to sink to my usual snotty self, and offered some rude commentary in the bargain. For all who read or were involved in that thread, I wish to extend my humble apologies. I am sorry if I dissapointed or offended anyone.

I would like to say that I still consider Colt's DA to be problematic at times, and have discovered a few writers who can explain the reasons much better than my feeble attempts. To wit:

"I would be hesitant to use +P ammunition in the Colt Official Police. There is plenty of strength in the frame and cylinder for this pressure level, but the Colt has an attribute that will accellerate wear with constant double-action use of +P loads--soft metallurgy on moving parts, esp. the two-step advancing hand. Colt DA wheelguns are works of art, but depend on the regular attention of armorers or gunsmiths to resolve timing issues that develop with DA usage and heavier loads. My agency had a couple hundred OP's in service at the time I started in 1977. They had begun usage of +P ammo in 1975, and the Colts--which were already getting tired--really took a nose-dive in short order. These were replaced in 1979 with S&W M-64's, and the problems disappeared." Deputy Al, author

and:

"I really like the older Colt wheelguns......those V-spring actions have a unique smoothness, and cycle like no other. The Colt was designed in a day that accepted neighborhood blacksmiths, mechanics, and gunsmiths as a fact of life in most communities, as institutions of the day required for the good of the community. Colt made no bones about it--you needed to have at least an armorer on staff at your police department, and a gunsmith would be even better.

The Colt DA lockwork is a piece of art in metal. I'm a fairly competent handgun armorer, but I also know my limits--and much of the Colt lockwork exceeds my skills. Very few of my deputies carried Colt sidearms after 1980, mostly Pythons and DetSpecs--maybe a dozen of each in a department of 500-1200 people as it grew over the years. If someone is going to shoot a Colt DA wheelgun frequently, it would pay dividends to find a gunsmith that will take on timing issues that afflict these guns from time to time." same author

plus:

"The Colt Offical Police with the classic Colt DA lockwork will do just fine with +P loads, but there are a couple of things to remember. When the Colt locks up in full battery, the bottom hand is bearing hard against the ratchet holding the cylinder in firm lockup. Therefore the hand takes the recoil of the pistol and will batter and shorten over time. The more recoil, the quicker the wear on the hand.

This is not a significan't problem, but a piece of regular maintainence on the old Colts. The hand has to be stretched back to it's original length.

Smiths lock up different and don't have this particular problem. They have a few of their own, but not this one." Chargar, author

Of course, these are simply opinons, and I have already commented on THAT issue, but I wanted to point out that Colt's, while solid and strong, have their weakpoints. However I did so in an uniformative and rude fashion. for more information, go to this thread:

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1644

Thank you!

 

[mec]

I missed any and all flame wars associated with this but you are absolutely right about the lockwork and the timing issues that go with the advancing hand.

 

[jc2]

Yep, the older Colts were fine-tuned, and there was a price associated with that locks up like bank vault action of the older Colts. Of course, if you really wanted tough in a revolver you went with a Ruger, but by the time of the Mark V and King Cobra, Colts were probably the toughest and most refined of the big three--but by then, with Colt's management, it was just too little, too late.

It's all kind of "water under the bridge" now.

 

[PX15]

Fragile Colts?

I'm NOT a Colt expert by ANY means, but I do own 3 of their snubbies.. I have 2 early series Cobra's, and a 1982 Nickle Detective Special.

The DS was "as new" when I bought it, and I guess is the only one of the three rated for +P. Since I've only shot a couple of hundred rounds thru it, none of them +P I'm sure it'll be "good to go" with +P's for a while. I DO keep it loaded with +P's, but plink with standard pressure cheaper rounds.

The 2 Cobra's are OLD.. (exposed ejector rod series) I've forgotten precisely the year of manufacture for them, but one is, I think, mid 1960's. I have no clue what has been run thru these veterans' over the years, but they still shoot great.

I don't think in 2005 very many people are carrying 38 spec Cobra's or DS's for self protection, but I feel very well armed when I choose to use my DS for that purpose. I prefer the DS over a very nice Crimson Trace equipped S/W J-Frame 638.

I think being an old fart semi-senile senior citizen has a lot to do with my appreciation for older things such as the Colt snubbies. I keep reading about how "fragile" the lockwork on the old Colts are, but my old pair of Cobra's have been around for many decades and still keep on working. Maybe I just got lucky, but I love my old Colts.

JP

 

[Boats]

I don't think in 2005 very many people are carrying 38 spec Cobra's or DS's for self protection, but I feel very well armed when I choose to use my DS for that purpose.

I just bought a third issue DS for that express purpose. If it develops any trouble, even Colt will still take care of it. I did a lot of research before I bought a discontinued Colt revolver and what I found to be the case was that the timing of most of the post war revolvers except for the Pythons was not generally considered to be too finicky at all. Every gun smith and revolver shooter I encountered who worked on or shot Colt revolvers only warned me against trying to "machine gun" one of them--as short stroking has graver consequences for the lockwork than it would on my Ruger.

So Colts being "delicate" is IMO, somewhat overblown, helped as many of these things are, via repetition on the internet.

 

[BigG]

All you need to do is look at the parts inside an older Colt revolver. They are much smaller and more complicated than a S&W. The relationships between the parts on the old Colt DA revos are not well understood by many and they do need to be taken care of more than a comparable Smith. As for a Ruger... life is too short, for me.

 

[Boats]

As for a Ruger... life is too short, for me.

Funny, I have similar sentiments for every Smith built after 1995.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I carried (and used) my personal Colt Model 357 my first tour in Viet Nam. I love Colts -- but I admit I babied this gun (Hey, I treated it like it was my own.)

On my second tour, I carried an M1911A1, issued by the Army and I treated it like it was issued.

The Army in those days issued S&W .38 Specials to aircrews (copying the Air Force for some strange reasons.) I saw a lot of those S&Ws turn into junk. But my M1911A1 kept on tracking.

I was a Mech Infantry company commander, and rode in a constant cloud of dust. I remember one day drawing and chambering a round in my M1911A1 just as a precaution -- and found the gun clogged with dust and sand. I had to give it a shake and a push to get a round to chamber. But chamber, it did. And later on, just for the heck of it, I emptied the magazine without a bobble.

No revolver could have functioned under those conditions.

 

[Standing Wolf]

In all my decades of owning and shooting Colt revolvers, I've never encountered one with timing problems. They seem to do quite well for "fragile" revolvers.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

In all my decades of owning and shooting Colt revolvers, I've never encountered one with timing problems. They seem to do quite well for "fragile" revolvers.

Nor have I. And I have one that spent a year in the jungle with me -- admittedly, I babied it.

 

[Checkman]

In 2005 I carry a thirty-two year old Colt Detective Special as my BUG. When I'm off-duty I carry that same DS as my CCW. I don't feel like I'm carrying a delicate work of art. I'm a rock-ribbed Smith and Wesson man when it comes to wheelguns, but I can't deny that back in the day Colt made some very good revolvers - it's a shame to see what has happened to Colt in the past twenty years. :banghead:

 

[Moonclip]

I have seen one Python develope timing issues but I think the problem is overstated. Most guns out there except for some 22 rimfires I bet have well less than 2K rounds though them so I think timing and durability issues are something people including myself worry about too much.

 

[scubie02]

actually, the first colt revolver I purchased turned out to have timing issues. The problem is perhaps overblown--often replacing the hand took care of the problem. According to my brother who's a gunsmith, they tended to make the hand's softer so that they were the part that wore because they were relatively cheap and easy to replace. You can buy them now for $18 or so. I could have probably fixed the timing problem on the colt without too much of a problem, but I've always sort of liked smith's anyway, and I could but 2-3 smith's for what that colt was worth. I had picked it up for $225 at this little shop (a guy had it on consignment, and probably was selling cheap because he knew it was out of time) and I sold it for $700. So far I have bought 2 model 10's and still have $100 left...

 

[Peter M. Eick]

My diamondback had timing issues. Colt fixed it.


Keep in mind it took 25 years and 45,000 rounds to get it there though. I doubt most diamondback shooters will every have a problem.

 

[JNewell]

I carried (and used) my personal Colt Model 357 my first tour in Viet Nam.

Small footnote on that, though -- the 357 was a Mark III gun, IIRC. The Mark III and Mark V were a good bit more robust than the D and I frame locks.

 

[Otony]

Thanks for all the replies. I seem to be noticing a common thread in replies to the contrary re: Colt DA fragility. Most of the replies mentioned using Detective Specials, and I want to assume that it is with standard velocity ammunition.

Methinks given regular usage by a careful shooter, any of the Colt's would survive a good long while, regardless of frame size. Mine all have, except for an Official Police that was already slightly out of time when purchased as a Boston Police Department trade-in.

When I originally mentioned that I felt Colt's DA lockwork was fragile, I should have made myself a bit more clear. With heavy usage, especially with hot loads or sloppy DA work, I think a Colt will go out of time sooner and easier than a S&W. I didn't intend to make y'all think that a Colt would break just looking at it, or in normal use. I still feel normal use is NOT hot loads however.

That being written, with careful use, and standard velocity loads, a Colt will likely last a good long while. The revolver that brought up this discussion to begin with is a New Service in .38 Special, so it is hardly likely to strain the action of such a beast with such a small caliber (relatively speaking).

I mentioned that it still wasn't the best choice, even for the time, and I stand by my statement. Considering that cops back then were just as likely to be the same on cops today, with some rough with equipment, and others not so. Rough, sloppy work and a Colt, even a biggun like a New Service don't seem compatible to me. I again refer you to the fact that most folks mentioned using their Detective Specials. I prefer to think that most of our members here are fairly familar with firearms usage (I could be wrong about this ), and would tend to care for their guns, if not outright baby them. Sloppy DA work, and +P or +P+ loads will wear out any Colt in pretty quick order. No one replying said they were sloppy DA men .

Mention was made of a Colt in 'Nam, but it turns out that maybe it was a MKIII. Those have a much stronger lockwork than the old fitted Colt's, if not as smooth and butterey. In either case, it too was "babied". So lets discount that mention, interesting as it might have been (and sir, I salute your efforts and contributions while in our military).

In any event, I haven't the time nor inclination to worry about this all that much. I take care of the Colts I own, and baby them as I see fit. None of them are duty weapons (now), so abuse isn't in the game plan and not an issue. I merely wanted to point out that I felt there were better choices, and I still feel that way. The funny thing is, I would likely take a SA revolver (even a Colt!) over a DA any day of the week, so most of this has been a moot issue for me. I figure I am just an onery old fart, but I did feel I had a bit of facts to support my position.

Thanks all!