Freedom in China, People's Paradise

[Lucky]

Just something I stumbled across, showing what China's really like. Some people over there have a lot of guts. I'd quote one paragraph or another, but I can't choose. Suffice it to say that the gov't there still sucks, still abuses people, and there are brave people actually standing up and being angry about it.

Ok, here's one quick example;

In February 2006, just before the opening of the annual session of the "two meetings" - the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference and the National People's Congress - Hu was abducted by plainclothes police and simply vanished.

I discuss with people who live and work in China, and they say it's really not bad at all. They're quite free, it's not like some old movie. ...And I start to believe it.

But now I will remember, freedom as a privilege is far different than freedom as a right. People in China may be allowed to enjoy the former, but not the latter. And it can be taken away at a moment's notice.

Don't get me wrong, I'll buy their guns. But that's to make sure this can never happen where I live.:shotgun: :runaway:

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060725_2.htm

When the olympics are on TV and the media is praising China's modern stance, just remember what happens to people who disagree with that. I expect there will be many 'activists' arrested for trying to show dissent in front of western media.


On a related note thanks again to ebd10 for telling about this book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag_archipelago
http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/00...eywords=gulag+archipelago&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=Go

". . .How we burned in the prison camps later thinking: What would things have been like if every Security Operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive?
Or, if during periods of mass arrests people had not simply sat in their lairs paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing to lose and had boldly sat up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt."
Aleksandr Isaevich Solzshenitsyn

 

[nobody_special]

My girlfriend is Chinese, and we've talked a bit about her country. You're right, in that the freedoms they have are a granted privilege rather than an inherent right... though in practice, the situation is not too different in this country (despite what certain old documents might suggest). Much of the civil/political/judicial injustice in China is due to corruption, cronyism, insufficient education, and a mass of people who have poor expectations. Cynicism leads to the acceptance of a bad situation.

China has a constitution which grants rights to the people... but there is a clause which essentially invalidates the whole document:

Article 51. The exercise by citizens of the People's Republic of China of their freedoms and rights may not infringe upon the interests of the state, of society and of the collective, or upon the lawful freedoms and rights of other citizens.

Chinese children take political propaganda classes, as well as some sort of political-correctness exams (which affect things such as whether or not you can get a good job). It sounds pretty bad to me, but the people do get along in their society.

Despite being well-educated, my gf has no interest in politics. That attitude seems to be a result of growing up in a society where expressing non-party-line political opinion can be very dangerous. We do talk about politics occasionally, and to her credit she has become a little more engaged in such conversations lately. (She took the political compass questionnaire; like me, she's liberal-libertarian, and more economically conservative than I am!)

The situation for the common people in China is pretty miserable, especially in rural areas. Aside from the lack of basic rights, the living conditions - especially poverty and pollution -- are like nothing we in the West have ever experienced.

Oh, and they have no guns, either.

 

[foob]

Aside from the lack of basic rights, the living conditions - especially poverty and pollution -- are like nothing we in the West have ever experienced.

Oh, and they have no guns, either.

Please look back 100-200 years in the west and you will find poverty and pollution to be a rampant problem. All developed countries at one point in their history faced this, and all developing countries will face this, where uncontrolled economic growth clashes with a lack of relevant laws and policies.

Another post has already clarified gun ownership in China, so I only need to say you are wrong.

It's probably not very useful to judge an entire country by your conversations with one native. Especially one so disinterested in politics.

 

[nobody_special]

Please look back 100-200 years in the west and you will find poverty and pollution to be a rampant problem. All developed countries at one point in their history faced this, and all developing countries will face this, where uncontrolled economic growth clashes with a lack of relevant laws and policies.

Yes, western countries once had poverty and pollution problems... but nothing like China today. Over half of the rivers in China are polluted so badly as to be incredibly toxic. The air pollution in major Chinese cities makes a bad day in LA look good. (And yes, I'm aware that LA air quality has improved a lot in the last couple decades.)

Another post has already clarified gun ownership in China, so I only need to say you are wrong.

A quick Google search, as well as discussions with several Chinese citizens, suggests that you are incorrect.

http://www.gunowners.org/opagn0301.htm

Communist China's first "gun control" law was enacted by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress on October 22, 1957. Article 9 barred the unauthorized making, purchasing, possession, repair, or use of firearms or ammunition "in contravention of safety provisions."

On September 2, 1983, the Second Meeting of the Standing Committee of the Sixth National People's Congress approved a law titled "On Severely Punishing Criminals Who Gravely Endanger Public Security of the Society." This law stated:

(1) The following criminals who gravely endanger public security of the society may be punished more heavily than the severest punishment currently stipulated in the Criminal Law, and may be punished by the death penalty.

And who might some of these "criminals" be who deserve death? Among those listed in this law: "A person who illegally makes, trades, transports, steals or purloins weapons, ammunition or explosives in a particularly serious way or with serious consequences."

Other sources (and these are just from the first page of search results):
http://www.wmsa.net/news/LaRaza/030623_gun_control_history.htm
http://english.people.com.cn/english/200108/10/eng20010810_77030.html

It's probably not very useful to judge an entire country by your conversations with one native. Especially one so disinterested in politics.

What ever gave you the impression that my gf is the only available source of information on China?

 

[foob]

Erm.. Chinese citizens are allows guns for hunting. I'm sorry I don't know which citizens you seem to discuss this issue with.

Do you even read the links you provide?

Your first link states

Q: Is it illegal in your country for private citizens to keep and bear arms?

A: It is not -- one has to get a permit to carry weapons. Of course some people carry weapons because of their official duties such as policemen or soldiers.

Sounds like something that occurs in the US too doesn't it???

Your second link states gun control was established in China in 1935.
Dude in 1935 the communists weren't in power, the nationalists were.

And your third link

Beijing public security departments have handled a total of 770 cases of illegal production and sale of explosives and guns.

"Illegal production and sale" is the keyword here. Just like in the US, people get arrested for illegal production and sale of explosives and guns.


At least you didn't link those articles that incorrectly paint China in a horrible picture to bash them. They are pretty horrible, but some articles love to exaggerate to get a point across.

 

[quatin]

Oh, and they have no guns, either.

I'm pretty sure this is wrong. My uncles have shotguns for hunting in China. China has gun control not gun BAN. People who have no interest in politics "usually" have no clue about politics. Not meaning this as an insult, just that if someone expresses no interest they probably didn't do their research either.

Yes, western countries once had poverty and pollution problems... but nothing like China today. Over half of the rivers in China are polluted so badly as to be incredibly toxic. The air pollution in major Chinese cities makes a bad day in LA look good. (And yes, I'm aware that LA air quality has improved a lot in the last couple decades.)

China is at least 50 years behind modern developed nations. Look back 50-80 years and see how bad Britain was. It's unfair to compare the Chinese Industrialist Era and the US Industralist Era. China had 1 billion people and the US had 100 million. Britain had a closer population density to China than the US. Also, I'm not denying China has bad pollution, it is a growing problem.

 

[nobody_special]

Do you even read the links you provide?

Did you?

Zhang explains that his government bans the private ownership of guns to ensure "the social tranquility and safety and security of the population."

They describe confiscation of hunting weapons in that article. Furthermore:

Q: Is there a constitutional right to keep and bear arms for private citizens in your country?
A: Certainly not.
Q: Is it illegal in your country for private citizens to keep and bear arms?
A: It is not -- one has to get a permit to carry weapons. Of course some people carry weapons because of their official duties such as policemen or soldiers.

Note also how much corruption there is in the Chinese governments (local and national). How easy do you think it would be for a common person to get a permit? How quickly would that permit be revoked if the common person came under government scrutiny for any reason? Especially considering this;

Q: So, why were these guns confiscated by your government?
A: Well, sometimes you had a weapon in your closet and then someone stole it and that may uhhhh, you know, cause some trouble.... Sometimes people just make their own rifles from makeshift shops and turn out some kind of very primitive type of gun.
[...]
Zhang explains that his government bans the private ownership of guns to ensure "the social tranquility and safety and security of the population." This is why they "confiscate or buy-back" weapons possessed by private persons.

It sure seems to me that they don't permit private possession of firearms.

Your second link states gun control was established in China in 1935.
Dude in 1935 the communists weren't in power, the nationalists were.

I'm well aware of that, but gun bans in China still exist.

 

[quatin]

I'm well aware of that, but gun bans in China still exist.

No they don't. That article you found even says that China does not ban guns. I just told you my Uncles own shotguns for hunting. Where are you getting this from?

 

[nobody_special]

No they don't. That article you found even says that China does not ban guns. I just told you my Uncles own shotguns for hunting. Where are you getting this from?

From the first link I posted above (emphasis added):

Communist China's first "gun control" law was enacted by the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress on October 22, 1957. Article 9 barred the unauthorized making, purchasing, possession, repair, or use of firearms or ammunition "in contravention of safety provisions."

And here:

•Prison or death to "counter-revolutionary criminals" and anyone resisting any government program
•Death penalty for supply guns to such "criminals"

From a 1999 UN report:

Similarly, new and more stringent national regulations have recently come into force in China: on the control on guns
within the country (October 1996) and on arms exports (January 1998).17 The Government of China has a policy of
destroying all confiscated illicit arms and has recently intensified its efforts in this regard. In 1998, it destroyed
about 300,000 such weapons.

 

[Lucky]

Hey hey, they said safety though. That's the magic word, you can't criticize them anymore.

 

[kungfuhippie]

Hey hey, they said safety though. That's the magic word, you can't criticize them anymore.

Then howcome when I say I want a gun for my personal SAFETY I still get criticized by anti's?

 

[Cesiumsponge]

A large share, if not a majority of people in China are pheasants that live in small villiages in the western half have no education, and lack of education can breed ignorance. Those that stand a future get sent off by their families to cities like Shanghai and Hong Kong where it's very capitalistic. China hasn't really interfered in Hong Kong's affairs ever since the return of Hong Kong in 1997. I spent several cumulative years of my life there with relatives (HK) and is probably the closest thing to Laissez Faire Capitalism that I've seen. I wouldn't want to travel very far outside of HK though.

Yes, western countries once had poverty and pollution problems... but nothing like China today. Over half of the rivers in China are polluted so badly as to be incredibly toxic. The air pollution in major Chinese cities makes a bad day in LA look good. (And yes, I'm aware that LA air quality has improved a lot in the last couple decades.)

The industry infrastructure boom 100-200 years ago in Western civilization was the first in the history of mankind so you had no "developed" nations exporting their toxic industries to us or Europe. Today, developed nations are fleeing over there to supplement industries that could never be established domestically because of the toxicity (or other things like human rights) bans them outright. China is happy for the income these companies bring and these companies are happy for the products they're allowed to sell to you and I. Everyone ignores the environmental impact because that doesn't benefit either party.

 

[thexrayboy]

Pheasants....Pheasants are a group of large birds in the order Galliformes. In many countries they are hunted as game.

Peasants.....A peasant, derived from 15th century French païsant meaning one from the pays, the countryside or region, which itself derives from the Latin pagus, country district, is an agricultural worker with roots in the countryside in which he or she dwells, either working for others or, more specifically, owning or renting and working by his or her own labour a small plot of ground. They are also referred to in England as a "cottager". The term peasant today is a pejorative term for impoverished farmers.

Sorry....couldn't help myself. Is hunting Chinese pheasants as much fun as the ones here in the Western US?

 

[Fletchette]

Unfortunately, the moden "New World Order" will make the U.S. and China more and more indistinguishable. I could even imagine the discussion of a merger in some dark backrooms somewhere...

 

[Lucky]

Then howcome when I say I want a gun for my personal SAFETY I still get criticized by anti's?

Because we live in fantasy land. Currently we're living under Star Trek logic. Spock told you plainly that the needs of the many are more important than the few, or the individual. (damed near direct Marx quote) And to hell with where that logic can take you with simple deduction (democratic cannibalism in time of food shortages?).


Cesium - they interfere in HK left and right. Just the last couple years people have been right pissed off at the communists just plain breaking their promises to leave important areas alone. And there's not a damned thing anyone can do about it.

 

[Cesiumsponge]

pheasants, peasants...rural villiagers play the same role over there too busy in their day-to-day life struggle attempting to survive to focus on what's going on around them.

Cesium - they interfere in HK left and right. Just the last couple years people have been right pissed off at the communists just plain breaking their promises to leave important areas alone. And there's not a damned thing anyone can do about it.

I haven't been back in about 5 years or so, so perhaps China is getting more bold. What exactly are they doing? Though I am not shocked...every government seems to make good on one promise, and that's to break their promises.

 

[mordechaianiliewicz]

It sounds like to me that the Chinese will allow "reliable" citizens who bribe the right people to own a shotgun or rifle for hunting in some way, shape or form. Such is so far away from "people owning guns" that I'd say the Chinese are disarmed.

 

[Lucky]

Cesium a lot of it is because they have yet to receive the democracy they were promised. and a lot more is because they don't want 'article 23' to be passed - IE anti-terrorist legislation.

They're no fools, you've got gov't you don't trust acting untrustworthy and trying to give itself 'anti terrorist' powers, that they know full well will be used against what are currently law-abiding citizens.