Friend Refuses to be reference on CCW Application
- Thread starter Colt
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ETXhiker
Member
BAAAAAAHHHH...
Travis Lee
Member
Some posters overthink this IMO.
The so-called friend has known the OP for several years, knows him to be of good character, and refuses to state that for the record.
When given a veto on your life decisions, he feels perfectly justified in doing so.
That is no friend, that is person who doesn't respect you.
In what way is that a friend?
--Travis--
The so-called friend has known the OP for several years, knows him to be of good character, and refuses to state that for the record.
When given a veto on your life decisions, he feels perfectly justified in doing so.
That is no friend, that is person who doesn't respect you.
In what way is that a friend?
--Travis--
Snowdiver
Member
This guy is NOT your friend. You are his friend. You don't have to be friends with everyone.
chaim
Member
I agree with those who say you can't see this only as a refusal to vouch for your character. If he refused you, and vouched for someone else, then fine he is no friend, but that isn't the case here.
You cannot divorce his refusal (or potential agreement) to be a reference from his views on guns. He apparently thinks guns are dangerous, dangerous enough that people shouldn't have them around, and has bought into the idea that carry is inherently dangerous. Then you ask this guy who thinks people carrying guns makes life for everyone more dangerous to agree to be a reference to allow you to do something he is morally and ethically opposed to and take it personally when he doesn't?! I would say, it is to be expected.
A question for those who say they'd end the friendship over this, if he was a real friend he'd have trust in the OP's character and judgement and override his own moral views and sign on anyway...
This will work best for those who are pro-life, if you aren't you can try to think that way for a moment.
You have decided that abortion is murder or at least morally wrong. A friend you respect asks you to drive her to a clinic because she needs an abortion. It won't give her the abortion, but it will make it possible (just as a reference won't give a person a CCW but it isn't possible without it). If you don't, someone else will probably give her the ride (just like the OP was able to get another reference) but she asks you because she spends a lot of time with you and trusts you. You are morally against abortion and think it should be banned, but she thinks you should overlook this in this case because you are friends (or at least solid acquaintances) and should trust her character and judgement. Would you give her the ride?
For most, I'd assume the answer is no. You may trust her character and judgement, but that doesn't change that you disagree strongly with her judgement in this case and at the very least you probably don't want to be a party to something you so strongly oppose. Further, you may even feel she crossed a line and be a little upset that she'd even ask you knowing how you feel and put you in that situation where you have to choose between your values and helping out a friend. That is the exact situation the OP and his friend/acquaintance were in.
You cannot divorce his refusal (or potential agreement) to be a reference from his views on guns. He apparently thinks guns are dangerous, dangerous enough that people shouldn't have them around, and has bought into the idea that carry is inherently dangerous. Then you ask this guy who thinks people carrying guns makes life for everyone more dangerous to agree to be a reference to allow you to do something he is morally and ethically opposed to and take it personally when he doesn't?! I would say, it is to be expected.
A question for those who say they'd end the friendship over this, if he was a real friend he'd have trust in the OP's character and judgement and override his own moral views and sign on anyway...
This will work best for those who are pro-life, if you aren't you can try to think that way for a moment.
You have decided that abortion is murder or at least morally wrong. A friend you respect asks you to drive her to a clinic because she needs an abortion. It won't give her the abortion, but it will make it possible (just as a reference won't give a person a CCW but it isn't possible without it). If you don't, someone else will probably give her the ride (just like the OP was able to get another reference) but she asks you because she spends a lot of time with you and trusts you. You are morally against abortion and think it should be banned, but she thinks you should overlook this in this case because you are friends (or at least solid acquaintances) and should trust her character and judgement. Would you give her the ride?
For most, I'd assume the answer is no. You may trust her character and judgement, but that doesn't change that you disagree strongly with her judgement in this case and at the very least you probably don't want to be a party to something you so strongly oppose. Further, you may even feel she crossed a line and be a little upset that she'd even ask you knowing how you feel and put you in that situation where you have to choose between your values and helping out a friend. That is the exact situation the OP and his friend/acquaintance were in.
12-34hom
Member
Speer stated What a victim
Not a victim - a volunteer.
12-34hom
Not a victim - a volunteer.
12-34hom
spocahp anar
Member
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The second amendment does not read: "A well regulated militia being necessary to a free society; the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringred. As long as you have friends who will approve of you doing so."
This chrarcter reference has no place in deciding whether you should or should not be allowed to get a gun. Its just another hoop or hurdle one must jump through. It is unfair to those who have recently moved, those who lead a very busy or isolated life, or simply those who wish not to make it known to everyone that he wishes to buy a gun.
The guy is an idiot. I'm not sure I would hang out with im anymore either. In fact the next time the misses have them over bring out an EBR and start cleaning it on the kitchen table in front of him to make sure that you don't. The cop/mall question probably wasn't the best scenario to proffer; his thinking is that a uniformed officer will be a visual deterrant to any criminal. One thing to point out is he isn't against self defense - he said he would use whatever he had available to ward off intruders. Scissors can be used to inflict lethal wounds. So you know he isn't against killing. So it becomes a gun issue.
This chrarcter reference has no place in deciding whether you should or should not be allowed to get a gun. Its just another hoop or hurdle one must jump through. It is unfair to those who have recently moved, those who lead a very busy or isolated life, or simply those who wish not to make it known to everyone that he wishes to buy a gun.
The guy is an idiot. I'm not sure I would hang out with im anymore either. In fact the next time the misses have them over bring out an EBR and start cleaning it on the kitchen table in front of him to make sure that you don't. The cop/mall question probably wasn't the best scenario to proffer; his thinking is that a uniformed officer will be a visual deterrant to any criminal. One thing to point out is he isn't against self defense - he said he would use whatever he had available to ward off intruders. Scissors can be used to inflict lethal wounds. So you know he isn't against killing. So it becomes a gun issue.
He tried to use this very example to justify his decision. He knows I'm pro-life, because I believe abortion is murder. You can argue civil liberties and freedom of choice all day long, but you won't get anywhere with me because I believe life starts at conception. To me, abortion is no different than deciding you no longer want your 5 year-old son, and would like him killed. Individuals that want to argue about when life begins, etc, may have other points of view, and at least have a basis for their opinion. But because I believe life begins at conception, it follows, to me, that abortion is murder.
But this comparison doesn't work. I'm not asking him to violate his beliefs so I can kill someone. He believes criminals who would do great harm to my family should be dealt with lethally, but only by the police. Quite to the contrary, I'm asking him to help ensure I can protect the lives of myself, my family, and other potential vicitms. He know's I'm responsible, I have a safe, my kids are gun-proofed, etc. He isn't worried a gun would pose a danger to anyone other than criminals, and has admitted as much. he simply believes I should not have the ability to defend my family with a gun.
telomerase
Member
You should immediately replace this TV-infested American "friend" with two immigrants. They will work harder and be more trustworthy.
Yes, I am quoting Eric Cartman... but it's still true. And if you offer to take the immigrants to the range, they'll go.
Yes, I am quoting Eric Cartman... but it's still true. And if you offer to take the immigrants to the range, they'll go.
I look at people in three ways; you can be a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger.
I only have a handful of friends (call them my brothers, even though we are not related) … these are people who I would, and have, put my and my family’s lives in their hands. I know if I ask them to do something it will get done. I have also accepted that everyone has flaws and I weigh the flaws of people I know against my love and respect for them.
Acquaintances are folks that may be fun to be around, but I haven’t developed a sense of trust for… they may become friends in the future.
Strangers are everyone else…
If you enjoy the time you have spent with the guy, keep hanging out with him, but accept the fact that he is just an acquaintance and not a true friend
I only have a handful of friends (call them my brothers, even though we are not related) … these are people who I would, and have, put my and my family’s lives in their hands. I know if I ask them to do something it will get done. I have also accepted that everyone has flaws and I weigh the flaws of people I know against my love and respect for them.
Acquaintances are folks that may be fun to be around, but I haven’t developed a sense of trust for… they may become friends in the future.
Strangers are everyone else…
If you enjoy the time you have spent with the guy, keep hanging out with him, but accept the fact that he is just an acquaintance and not a true friend
I had a similar conversation, on many occasions, with a friend I'd known since high school. I lover her dearly and respected her intelligent ability to argue many different points. We just could never see eye to eye on this one issue. Till we went to see Shindlers List. First thing out of her mouth when walking out of the theater was a question about how she could go about purchaseing a firearm and where. We started with a few trips to the range letting her and her husband try some of mine first. A perfect example of someone who was totally anti gun till the realities of the world set in.
As mentioned, anyone who will not vouch for your character is DEFINITELY not a friend.
Do any of you guys/gals have friends whom you wouldnt vouch for?
This guy doesnt think very highly of you, hey, no biggie, we all have our own opinions and prejudices when it comes to others.
I surely wouldnt think very highly of him either of he isnt reciprocating the respect you give, or could give him. I wouldnt hang out with him and his wife either.
Do any of you guys/gals have friends whom you wouldnt vouch for?
This guy doesnt think very highly of you, hey, no biggie, we all have our own opinions and prejudices when it comes to others.
I surely wouldnt think very highly of him either of he isnt reciprocating the respect you give, or could give him. I wouldnt hang out with him and his wife either.
Prince Yamato
Member
There are ~5 billion people on this planet. I'm sure a couple thousand of them will make better friends and can attest to your good character. Make one of thesse 5 billion your new best friend and get rid of this doofus old one.
PaladinX13
Member
- Joined
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- 747
Colt, you're contradicting yourself. You've already said that he would feel less safe if you were to escort people to the mall armed. If he feels less safe that means he feels increased danger to someone other than a criminal. Heck in the post right above you said he said, "Having guns [or a pool] in your house is a danger to you and your family."
While he clearly has an irrational fear of guns [or any object] imposing an unnecessary risk upon you, your family, and others, you're likewise irrational with your stance on "anyone should vouch for anyone's character under any circumstances"... such an attitude is absurd.
Just as you wouldn't drive someone to a clinic because you're pro-life and the individual would be pro-choice (seeing their individual liberty as trumping something they don't consider to be a life), your ex-friend refuses to aid you in endangering your family because he considers guns an undue risk. The sister's bad date and the Press Pass example have already been given. If you can't even see that point-of-view, your going to be crippled in making any kind of pro-gun arguments to anyone who thinks critically (just left with preaching to the choir or people to given into any argument, sound or unsound).
Again, asking the forum to ratify why a person with a single mistaken belief is actually something more- why this person is scum, inhuman, etc.- is far from the High Road. You'd be better served by having consistently logical arguments [such as what risk statistics really mean] and correcting that one belief (that objects can somehow create inherent danger and risk) than getting people to help you agree why your bitterness is justified.
mike101
Member
This guy sounds like a real dip****. Get a new friend.
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