Friend who doesn't "need" a gun

[Oldtimer]

I saw numerous anti-gun and "I-don't-need-a-gun" types in my local gun store on the night of April 29, 1992. That was the first night of the "Rodney King riot", and all of those non-gun folks were trying to buy guns! I'm sure that they all felt that they not only had the "right" to own firearms, they suddenly felt the "need". What they faced, however, was the LAW that they probably thought was "reasonable" at one time....the mandatory 10-day waiting period in the State of California!

The manager of that gun store told me that several "hopeful" gun buyers nearly went ballistic when they were told that they would have to wait 10 days before their gun purchases could be handed to them.
One of those hopefuls actually tried to bribe the manager if he would "overlook" the state law. He was willing to pay $2,000 for a new Ruger 10/22 rifle, if he could take it home that same night!

My oldest nephew is now 48 years old, and he used to be an anti-gun person, but has moved up the ladder to the "I-don't-need-a-gun" category. I've offered to take him out shooting numerous times, but he just doesn't care to.

When the going gets tough, there will be the "haves" and the "have nots". The "have nots" are somewhat naive about what COULD happen in the future, or they are falsely thinking that the police/govenment will be "everywhere" WHEN the you know what hits the fan! Their thinking is stuck in the mode of "It won't happen to ME!"

 

[benEzra]

I have a bit of a problem. Recently I hung out with an old freind from highschool, I graduated in 99 so it wasn't that long ago. But its clear than living in a liberal bastion(Portland Maine) for a few years has affected him.

FWIW, Maine is both liberal and VERY pro-gun. My wife is originally from Massachusetts but grew up in Maine (Brewer, across the Penobscot from Bangor), and we get up there occasionally.

If you're ever in the Bangor area, check out Van Raymond's Outfitters on South Main Street in Brewer. Not the biggest gun/outdoors store you'll ever see, but a really neat place.

 

[Brother in Arms]

BenEzra

Maine is an unusual state that way. I think the major reason for it is, that most of the liberals live in southern maine where there are more people. Southern Maine always seems to vote one way and northern maine the other. But overall it has alot of folks who consider themselves Democrats. But aren't really. Many people are more like libertarians but they don't know what that means. There is a lot of pro-gun sentiment, but of course over time this gets chipped away at by the people from the south (where most of the anti-gun iniative hails from) I am very proud that my state resisted ethan strimlings Maine assault weapons ban, which also would have banned .50 BMG if you ever see the dead law you can see that it is worse than californias.

Brewer isn't far, I have been to Van Raymonds many times.

Old timer: I think you are right in your post about the haves and have nots. I am glad I am a have

thanks for all the great responses everyone

Brother in Arms

thanks for the reply

 

[V4Vendetta]

"is he to far gone to save?"

If Anakin could return from the dark side of the force, I'm sure your friend could be helped.

Just take him shooting. If he still doesn't want a gun, have him committed.

 

[OrvilleYertleson]

Um, so long as he is in college, living in a dorm (where it is a felony to posses a firearm, at least in most places) he really doesn't need a gun. The risks most likely far outweigh the benefits in those circumstances.

Besides, if he isn't willing to take the time to become proficient with a firearm or really incorporate it into a home/self defense strategy then it probably really is more of a liability than a help for him.

I would make sure he has a ball bat or something appropriate and preferably less lethal than a firearm in his dorm. Of course, you could always let him know that you are going to pick him up something extra at the next gun show and that he can pick it up anytime if he decides he would like a firearm.

My brother is a perfect example of this. He is vaguely interested in having a pistol for home defense, but he believes his lifestyle does not lend itself to having a firearm around the house and he knows he wouldn't dedicate the time necessary to become proficient with it. He is much more comfortable with a ball bat and would probably use it with far less hesitation should the need arise than he would a firearm.

 

[Brother in Arms]

Greg I do believe he has a bat, However him owning a gun doesn't mean he needs to keep in it his dorm. The school he goes to has an armory where he could keep his firearm if he indeed had one. I also asked him if he would have a gun if he didn't live in a dorm and he said he would probably not. He said he couldn't have a gun at his parents house either because they are anti-gun. Go figure. My point was he should have one so he could protect his constitutional rights as an american. Not just encase of crime but for the primary reason of defense against tyranny. This is when he said if the SHTF he would steal a firearm. My answer to that was good luck stealing one from people once the SHTF because that is when everyone will be using them.

I am going to talk to him see if he wants to go shooting, which he said he would, he even said he has before and it was fun.

Thanks everyone

Brother in Arms

 

[Burt Blade]

He has a plan. Help him see how it is not a good one.

Steal a gun from whom? A neighbor? A cop? One of those hypothetical Purple-Belly Tyrants? (Firefly reference). Those same folks will all try to kill him for trying to steal their guns. And probably succeed. Best to have one ahead of the storm.

Now, if he had a mild-mannered little .22 rifle, just for plinking mind you.... Heck, he could even store it with a friend.

Over the years I bought a couple of guns just to make sure I had a few give-aways for times of crisis. Nothing major, typically a simple .22. And only, of course, for the friend or family member who wasn't deliberately stupid, just misinformed. A .22 may not seem like much, but it will discourage rioters, drive off many intruders, kill varmints (two-legged and four), provide meat for the table, and provide hours of inexpensive target practice.

You really can do a lot with a basic .22 rifle, bolt-action or semi-auto. ATF says you cannot cut them down to a pistol, of course. Most "plinking" .22 rifles will hide under a long coat or in a large gym bag so why bother? If the space aliens take over next week, you can pop one from ambush and steal his plasma carbine. Earth for the Earthians and all that. Martians go home.

 

[hso]

My point was he should have one so he could protect his constitutional rights as an american. Not just encase of crime but for the primary reason of defense against tyranny.

This usually isn't the best argument to start out with to bring someone into shooting. It is an ideological approach and makes for a poor foundation when the vote and free speech still exist in any recognizable form. Most folks just don't see how things could get so bad with government that a tyrannical police state develops to motivate them to pick up a gun in a political cause. Much smaller social collapse scenarios in the form of high crime rates and short term riots are easier theoretical problems for people to grasp and there are plenty of concrete events to point to.

This is when he said if the SHTF he would steal a firearm. My answer to that was good luck stealing one from people once the SHTF because that is when everyone will be using them.

You made a very good point. Ask him how many people would be willing to loan him 5 gallons of gas if there were shortages and prices hit $5 per gallon. Now ask him to extend that thinking to such a desperate life and death situation that would move him to "steal a firearm". Considering people would be saying NO at the point of that gun he might so desperately want he would be completely out of luck. Also ask him if he would sink so low himself to deprive another person of their only form of self-defense. He probably would not.

Try to avoid the ideological arguments, stay away from the political theoretical situation. Stay with the solid concrete facts about more guns used in defense than crime, but best of all stay away from arguing with him at all. Life goes on, friends grow and change. Young people are the most prone to change and very prone to be stubborn and are much more like cats than rope in that you can only entice them, rarely pull them and never push them. This from a former vegetarian pacifist that now collects and shoots milsurps and relishes Bar-B-Que

 

[torpid]

Brother in Arms

This is when he said if the SHTF he would steal a firearm.

hso

Also ask him if he would sink so low himself to deprive another person of their only form of self-defense. He probably would not.

He may answer not, but from his attitudes and statements, I'm certain that he would try- if he felt it would save his own life.

.

 

[Mannlicher]

just leave it be

folks have guns for personal reasons. If your friend does not want one, then just leave it be.

 

[DirtyBrad]

This from a former vegetarian pacifist that now collects and shoots milsurps and relishes Bar-B-Que

I will never understand former vegetarians.

 

[UWstudent]

wow.. graduate of 99 and still in dorms?

 

[cz75bdneos22]

brother in arms,

howdy, now...why you would waste your time, energy and emotions on someonelse's resistance to your "need" argument for a gun is beyond me...you like guns, great...you devote time and effort to gunsmithing, great too...obviously you have a passion for something with which he does not share the same sentiments as you do...it's ok. that's what makes us individuals...don't try to make him a replica of you...do what you like, love what you do...be true to your self and enjoy life and what life has to share with you in the form of friends, acquaintances and experiences...afterall, they will vary...believe me...they will vary.. don't ask me how i know this!!

 

[Herself]

I will never understand former vegetarians.

What's to understand? They're delicious!


--H

 

[rangerruck]

get him a copy of americas fortst freedom , a magazine that is put out monthly by the nra. in every issue there are several stories of just regular avg folks , just like him who use firearms to save them selves somewone else, their property or another's property. sometimes they don't even pull the trigger. show him the articles, and when he is done, tell him also to go to the fbi's sight that show gun crime self defense stats, it will show your friend how many times every year for about the past 30 years , that guns are used in seflf defense. i also read a good article just this past month, that did a statisticle analysis on odds of thing s happeining to you. you are more likely to need a gun or have a gun pulled on you , than lots of what you and i think of as normal thing s or accidents happening to us.. i dant remember where i read it though, damn! then tell your friend if it would be ok with him , you would like to buy him a subscription to america's first freedom. i think that if he reads that article just a couple of times, it will change his mind, though do not expect him to admit it, also don't try to pry it out of him, if he changes his mind , he will tell you.
one more thing , cue up the line from the christian slater tony scott directed movie, where he says, "better to have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it!"

 

[CrazyIrishman]

Brother in Arms,


This is just my .02 worth.....

Extend an open invitation to go shooting at the range if you haven't already and see what happens. If he takes you up on it bring something easy to shoot like a 22 and go from there. Don't take a large caliber gun that can be hard to handle especially for a novice. Be encouraging when possible.

Make SURE that you explain ALL SAFETY ISSUES concerning the handling and use of a firearm whether at home or range!!! Do this BEFORE he handles ANY FIREARMS!! I can't stress SAFETY enough! Accidents don't "just" happen, they ARE CAUSED!

OTOH, if he doesn't want to go or is hesitant giving you an answer, "Don't sweat the little stuff" .

If your other buddy is very interested then by all means take him along. He might end up being a shootin' buddy for life! Never can tell! LOL

Just like buddy #1, make sure YOU explain the SAFETY ISSUES beforehand! This is one thing you cannot skip!

And....one last thing. Preaching will only serve to push him away. Also, if you get upset and LOUD he will hear even less. I hope everything works out for ya!

 

[Brother in Arms]

Thanks everyone
Many good points of advice and ideas. I am going to stay cool about the situation, I had not intentions of cloning myself, I basickly realized that my perceptionw as the enemy. I thought he was a certain way, that he wasn't I thought that he liked firearms and thought that they where useful but that he just didn't have any (how he always seemed to be when I was in highschool) but he had changed in time and my mental image of him hadn't.

As for his graduation date, he graduated a year after me, which means this will be his 6th year in colledge probably more like his 4 considering he has been in 3 colleges so far, and had times when he wasn't in school.

In anycase I have invited him shooting (the day of the incident infact) and he said then that he would go. My other freind wants to shoot also, I just have to get in touch with them and shoot. They live about 4 hours away. I have another freind in NH id like to visit so I might see them and her at the same time.

Thanks everyone for the information.

Brother in Arms

 

[gazpacho]

For all who have friends or loved ones who are Anti, have you ever tried to teach them how not to fire a gun? I consider this the alternative approach to offering a free trip to the range.

Pose them the question, "How about I teach you how NOT to fire a gun?

They will say "huh?" and probably want to know more.

Describe a situation like, "Well, what would you do if you saw a three year old child walking around carrying a handgun? Would you know what to do, and how to do it without the handgun accidentally discharging?"

Even most Antis will see the logic in learning how to "not" fire a handgun, and how to make a weapon safe (or atleast safer).

I was actually taken up on this offer once. I took out four weapons and snap caps for all to simulate cartridges. Then I went over the four rules of gun handling. I told my friend (a single mother) the four rules apply whether or not you intend to fire the gun. Then I went through the four weapons, a revolver, a DA/SA auto-pistol, a semi-auto rifle, and a pump shotgun. Just like instructing a shooter, I explained how to load and unload the weapon, to put it on safe or off safe and to fire the weapon. I also explain ways to temporarily disable the gun like blocking open the ejection port with car keys, a twig or even a rock. Then I let her go though all the actions of handling the guns, waiting until she accidentally swept me with the muzzle. I made a big show of saying "Woah!" and pushing the muzzle away from my person. That one little bit of negative reinforcement made her hyper aware of where the muzzle was pointing from then on.

That was years ago, and she still doesn't like guns, but she reminds me that she isn't afraid to handle them, if she needs to, now that she knows how. To me, that is what is really important. She is a friend that is FAR less likely to hurt herself or someone else should she need to handle a firearm. And even if she forgets everything else, as long as she remembers to keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, then I've done my job.

A lot of these accidental gun deaths we here about occur simply because these poeple don't know how to treat firearms with due respect and understanding.

So if you get a chance, teach an Anti how NOT to shoot a gun.

 

[boofus]

You don't "need" a gun any more than you "need" an attorney in court.

You can certainly opt to go without, but sometimes having what you don't "need" makes things turn out much better.

 

[MaMa PyCb]

I dunno..my .02$ i guess...

Ive found that most antis around here usually are the ones who come to me with there arguments more than I come to them. Also i ususlly just ask them to come to the range and shoot for a bit, learn the gun saftey and if after all that there still willing to come to me with there "anti propaganda" then so be it. Not a single person who has come to the range with me has ever come back a anti. They all own a Mn 91/30 or a SKS now.

The best though was when a female friend of mine took her boyfriend with us, and he was a rather hardcore Anti...... He was all anti till she was shooting her trooper Mk.III. I think that turned him on or somthing cause then he was all about shooting and owning guns all the sudden, hes got a couple makarovs and a few various revolvers now......he has to be a manly for the woman folk i guess

 

[1911Tuner]

Antis at the Range

My stand-by for gettin' an anti hooked is a little M-77 Ruger .223 bolt rifle
and a slew of drink cans fulla water on the 200-yard berm. Once they start to tag those cans and watch'em blow H2O to the treetops...they're addicted.
They call me up and ask to try a pistol next.

Make it fun. Make it interesting. They'll be back.

 

[c_yeager]

Not wanting to own a gun is a perfectly valid life choice. The line is drawn when a person seeks to prevent OTHERS from having their second amendment rights, it doesnt sound like your friend has crossed that line, so I have a hard time seeing what the problem is. Trying to live a persons life for them IS a problem, and it really isnt much different from what the antis want to do.

 

[Frandy]

Originally Posted by Kaylee:

Take him shooting, make it fun, answer questions, don't preach.
Nothing will turn a person off like being preached at.

Yup

Originally Posted by c_yeager:

Not wanting to own a gun is a perfectly valid life choice. The line is drawn when a person seeks to prevent OTHERS from having their second amendment rights, it doesnt sound like your friend has crossed that line, so I have a hard time seeing what the problem is. Trying to live a persons life for them IS a problem, and it really isnt much different from what the antis want to do.

Yup

 

[GoBrush]

Take him shooting, make it fun, answer questions, don't preach.

Nothing will turn a person off like being preached at.

+1 on that. If you take him and he is still negative then start taking others you are bound to convert a few. It is all about education and training. With the proper education and training many people will be won over. I have made it one of my life long goals to convert as many people as possible over to the shooting sports. Once they are converted I move them toward being CCW friendly and then move them into AR ownership. Once most people understand that the black scary gun is actually fun to shoot and very accrate they have no problem.

If the only thing I accomplish is getting people to understand that guns dont kill people kill. And that guns can actually be a very good hobby to have and family friendly I have accomplished my main task.

Good Luck