Frustrated by mistake - Aughhhh!

[mugsie]

I did a stupid thing the other day. I loaded over 80 rounds of Privi brass .308 without spot checking. One or two chamber, a couple don't, another one does, another batch doesn't.... Usually when loading I check periodically to make sure everything is going well. I check the powder and weigh it occasionally, I drop the brass in a chamber gauge to make sure they're to spec, I'm very deliberate when I reload, for some reason the other day I wasn't.

Spent the better part of last evening whacking my loaded rounds on the ground with the bullet eraser, recaptured the powder and bullets, so no loss there (did manage to drop one bullet into the powder can where it immediately sank to the bottom thank you!).:banghead: Now tonight I need to push the primers back out, and run the brass back through the neck sizing die and start all over again. Near as I can figure, when I neck sized them last time, they were right on the edge of too high, and I let it go for some reason. When I spot checked the first couple of rounds, they chambered. The rest are hit and miss.

Lesson learned.

whew! I feel better.

 

[jr_roosa]

No need to deprime. Just remove the decap pin.

J.

 

[steve4102]

You lost me on this one.

Are you saying that your Neck sized brass did not "chamber" in your rifle or it did not fit into a chamber "gauge"? If it's the gauge, I would check them in the rifle first as it's highly unlikely the gauge and your chamber are identical.

If the neck sized brass does not chamber, what is going to be accomplished by neck sizing it again?

 

[USSR]

If the neck sized brass does not chamber, what is going to be accomplished by neck sizing it again?

Exactly. If they do not chamber, it's either because the shoulder is too far forward (most likely) or the web portion is too large. In either case, you will need to full length resize them.

Don

 

[qajaq59]

Sounds like it is time to FL size them. The neck sizing often is only good for a while.

 

[fguffey]

"Now tonight I need to push the primers back out, and run the brass back through the neck sizing die and start all over again. Near as I can figure, when I neck sized them last time, they were right on the edge of too high, and I let it go for some reason. When I spot checked the first couple of"

If you had ask "Do I need to push the primers out and run the brass back through the neck sizer again---?" I would have said no, you need to remove the primer punch pin from a full length sizer die first then adjust the die down to the shell holder with the ram up then secure the die with the lock nut, then size 4 of your cases, afterwords chamber all four cases for fit, if all four chamber adjust the gap between the shell holder and bottom of the die with a feeler gage starting with .002 thousands and repeat the process of sizing and chambering, if all four cases chamber increase the gap to four thousands (secure the lock nut) and again repeat the process, you will eventually get to the point when sized cases will not chamber reliably, I normally start with a gap of .004, and have progressed to .008 thousands (no-go sized).

I start at .004 thousands because I can measure the effect the die, shell holder and press has on sizing, with the die making contact with the shell holder and the slack and flex is removed from the the press the space between the deck of the shell holder and cavity of the die is .000 or a maximum sized case, and that is .005 under a go-gage sized chamber, if this is not true sizing is nothing more than an accident, I get predictable results. There is a correlation between the way I adjust my press, die and shell holder and the sized case. There is a correlation between my chamber length from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber and the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder, if the sized case chambers, the case is shorter, if the sized case does not chamber the case is longer meaning the length of the case is adjustable, form first or fire form? I get all the use I can out of the full length sizer die, partial neck size, neck size with partial body size or full length size, I am a big fan of cutting down on all that case travel.

If you think pounding the primers exposed them to abuse that effects their ability to function or has compromised them in any way select 5 random cases for testing, chamber, fire (without powder/bullet), if all five fire I would not remove them I would remove the primer punch pin.

 

[fguffey]

and I am not a fan of firing them (cases) 5 times before they are full grown, I am a big fan of knowing the distance from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber AND making the measurement part of the chamber/rifle history, I like stories that go something like: I ran 3,000 rounds through this rifle and the length of the chamber increased in length .004 thousands. That .004 would take the chamber from go gage size to no-go gage size, set back or metal compression who knows? That story is better than the one that goes: I ran 4,000 rounds through that rifle and nothing and then suddenly and all at once it came apart.

F. Guffey

 

[mugsie]

FGuffy - You're saying not to pop the primers out? I removed the bullets and powder. On a couple of cases, I re-neck sized. Prior to neck sizing, I checked them in both a Wilsons case gauge and in my chamber. They were border line in the case cauge and difficult to close the bolt in the chamber. I also found several that appeared to be "slightly", like in a smidgen, above the no go of the gauge. I tried these in the chamber and they would not chamber. Couldn't close the bolt. I took them back to the press, readjusted the neck size die down a few thousands, and tried again. I coutinued doing this until they cases were just slightly above the minimum on the case gauge and chambered freely in the rifle. I believe they are now properly sized. I'm sure the shoulder was too far forward, by a few thousands, and would not allow the bolt to close.

So you're saying that now that I have this resolved, I should just remove the primer punch and expander ball and only re-neck size, or screw the punch upward but still allow the expander ball to enter the neck to reform it on the upward stroke?

 

[steve4102]

How did you bump the shoulder by neck sizing? Looks to me as if you are full length sizing not neck sizing. Or am I missing something?

 

[fguffey]

"So you're saying that now that I have this resolved, I should just remove the primer punch and expander ball and only re-neck size, or screw the punch upward but still allow the expander ball to enter the neck to reform it on the upward stroke? "

Full length sizing/neck sizing is sizing the neck down first when the ram is raised and expanding the neck with the sizer ball when the ram is lowered. Confusion? the case gets longer when the neck is sized down, the case gets shorter when the neck is expanded, I do not know what die (RCBS, LEE, etc.,) you are using, all of my dies are marked F.L. for full length sizer or Neck sizer.

I would be neck sizing with a full length sizer die, I do not know what you are using, you can remove the primers, I wouldn't, I would remove the primer punch pin and leave the sizer ball where it is, I have neck sizer dies, I prefer the full length sizer die.

F. Guffey

 

[rcmodel]

If you were able to bump the shoulders back, you are not using a neck sizing die.

If you did anything at all in a die, the necks were sized already and do not need to be sized again.

You should have removed the primer punch and left the expander plug in place to begin with.

Once they fit the rifle, all you needed to do was proceed with reloading them again.

rc

 

[mugsie]

Fguffy / RCmodel,
I'm using an RCBS neck sicing die for .308. I'll need to remove the primer punch from it tonight, but I'll leave the expander ball in place. I'll run several through the neck sizer, using the new setting, and see how they chamber. In the past, no matter what rifle I was loading for, I always tried a few, checked the chambering in the rifle, and checked the headspace using a gauge. I don't know what happened this time. Somehow I really messed this one up. Oh well, guess it's part of the learning curve (do we ever stop learning?).
Thanks for all your help, I really appreciate it.

 

[fguffey]

Mugsie, forgive me if I I am confusing you, I have RCBS BAR dies (Browning Automatic Rifle) Competition dies, case forming dies, trim dies, small base dies, and neck sizing dies, the only die I have that does not have body case support is the neck sizing die, the neck sizer die only neck sizes, I can neck size a 30/06 case with a 308 Winchester die and set the shoulder back (sorta), the shoulder on the 308 W is 20 degree and the 30/06 shoulder angle is 17.30 degree, when setting the shoulder back the case must have body support, without support the case body bulges.

When full length sizing the bulged/expanded case body is sized first, this causes the shoulder of the case to bulge (move forward), once the shoulder portion of the die contacts the shoulder of the case it begins to be sized.

and you are welcome,

F. Guffey

 

[mugsie]

Fguffy,

Whoopee! Removed the decapper pin, left the expander ball in place, resized all of em' and they all chamber perfectly! Didn't need to remove the primers - whew! saved a lot of time and effort there. Thanks again for the advice. Looks like I'll be shooting again this weekend! Yea!

 

[steve4102]

Sorry mugsie, but you ain't listenin to the experts here. They are trying to tell you somethin. Please go back and read their posts. A neck die is just a neck die, nothing more, nothing less, it cannot size the case body or bump the shoulder back. It simply cannot be done!

 

[ROGER4314]

I load a lot of 30-06 and 308 and have used lots of military brass. You really need to chamfer the case mouth so when the bullet is seated, it won't collapse the shoulder of the case. It's a small bulge at the case shoulder that results from overstressing the case but it's plenty to keep the round from chambering. Shoving them back into the die might straighten the bulge out but not fix the problem.

I'd like to know more about the case prep you've given those cases.

Flash

 

[mugsie]

Now I'm really confused - you're right, neck sizing does only that - sizes the neck. Yet last night, I removed the decapping pin from my neck sizing die, ran 60 cases, with primers, back through the process and now they all fit and chamber properly. I did crank the die down a little further, so could it be that I just wasn't sizing the neck all the way down to the shoulder, thereby causing the case to partially enter the chamber but not allowing it to seat fully? That's the only thing I can think of. Any ideas?

 

[fguffey]

Mugsie,not related but partial neck sizing is a good thing, the unsized portion of the neck will center the case in the chamber, when I partial neck size I use a full length size die.

F. Guffey

 

[steve4102]

Is it possible you have your seating die set to low allowing for the crimp feature to deform the neck a little?

 

[mugsie]

I think I wasn't sizing the neck down fully, which caused it to not chamber. I have no other explanation as to why they now work after resizing. All I did was to screw the sizer die down another 1/8th turn or so and now they work. When I dropped them in the gauge, the base didn't move relative to the max / min setting for head spacing, nor would I have expected them to since I'm not full length sizing, but when I dropped them into my rifle, every case chambered freely with no effort on the bolt.

My .223 was sooooo much easier, and I both neck size for the bolt gun and FL size for the AR, and it never gave me any problems. The .308 is fighting all the way!