FTEs with Power Mag Plus 8-Rounders

[EnderWiggin]

I own a Springfield Loaded .45 ACP Government Sized 1911 and have run into an issue with CMC Power Mags. The first time I ever used an 8-round Power Mag was when I borrowed a couple from a friend for an IPSC match. On two of the three stages, the last round would fail to eject. I was using regular 7-round stock Springfield Metalform magazines as well as the Power Mags interchangeably and only when using the Power Mags would the FTE occur on the last round.

I gave CMC the benefit of the doubt and just assumed my friend's magazines were old and maybe damaged. I went ahead and bought myself an 8-round Power Mag+ and took it to the range. Twice the same thing happened, the last round failed to eject. Attached are some pictures I took of the jam and the resulting casing.

Seems as though when the extractor is pulling the last casing out after being fired, it is being jammed into the magazine lips. The magazine lips then cut into the brass rim of the casing and it results in the casing getting stuck in the magazine lips and then being slammed in the front of casing by the front of the ejection port of the slide. The pictures show how the front of the casing is dented front the slide slamming into it and also shows (if you look closely) how the back rim of the casing has two notches that were created when it was jammed into the magazine feed lips. Again, this only seems to happen on the last round.











Now I don't think this is an issue with my firearm because I have 5 other stock metalform magazines that work just fine and have never had an issue with over 1000 rounds through them.

I shoot Winchester White Box .45 ACP rounds ONLY. I don't reload and never shoot reloads.

I sent CMC an email on this issue and this was their reply:

All of us here in CMC's Tech Support have built and tuned 1911 pistols. Those qualifications are required experience for the job. We won't claim that makes us experts, but add in the decades experience we have with trouble shooting magazine related issues and this specific area is something we are qutie proficient with.

The 1911 magazine by original design has two main functions it is associated with; feeding subsequent rounds into the barrel chamber and initiating slide lock upon last shot fired. As for extraction and ejection of the last fired cartridge, the magazine by design has no role or influence in the extraction/ejection function of the pistol.

In theory we certainly understand the logic that if the extraction/ejection failures are only occuring with your CMC mags that somehow the CMC mags must be the cause. But the only theory we are aware of that supports that logic is that your extractor is not properly tuned resulting in the follower being the component that is actually making the empty cartridge eject by popping the empty cartridge just as the follower reaches the extent of it's upware stroke. And for the rounds being ejected before the mag is empty, they are being popped out of the pistol by the next live round to be fed.

With the CMC followers, when they engage the slide stop upon last shot fired to initiate slide lock, because the CMC follower is engaging the slide stop at that point it means the follower is riding even lower in the mag tube than when the empty mag is ejected and not in the pistol. But the fact that at the point of engaging the slide stop the CMC follower is usually riding lower in the magazine than other brands, supports theory that the CMC follower is less likely to pop and/or assist in the ejection of the spent round.

In summary, what we are saying is;

1. The magazine, any brand for that matter, should not be having any affect on how the pistol is extracting and ejecting a spent round at any point in the stack; first, middle or last.

2. If extraction/ejection of the last round is contingent on magazine configuration then our experience and knowledge 100% supports the diagnosis that your extractor is not properly tuned and needs to be re-tuned or replaced. (It's very common belief in the profession of high end 1911 gunsmithing that the extractor is the weakest part of the 1911 design. That is why you see newer 1911's, like S&W with external extractor designs.) But when properly tuned and maintained the original 1911 extractor design is perfectly reliable.

If your final belief is (or that of any other experts you may consult with) that your CMC mags are somehow the cause of extraction/ejection failures, we will be glad to have the mags in question returned to us for examination of each component and testing in our variety of brands of 1911 pistols. Or;

If the purchase of your CMC mag(s) is within 30 days and from a participating dealer you have the option of exercising CMC's 30 day Satisfaction Guarantee for return and refund.

After reading their response, I have believe that maybe they are correct in saying that my gun has an issue and the only reason I don't see it with the stock magazines is because the follower is helping the casing stay above the feed lips. I don't have pictures of it but for sure the stock magazine follower is longer than that of the Power Mag+ and so it is definitely possible that this length is what does not allow the case rim to fall below the magazines lips.

I tested my extractor by chambering a live round, removing the mag, and then slowly backing the slide up to right before the ejector hits the casing and seeing if the round is held up by the extractor alone. It does. So this leads me to believe that my extractor is fine.

I know this post is long but its an issue that requires a lot of details and I wanted to make sure I supplied you with all the information I have gathered thus far. What are your thoughts on this? All I hear are praises of the CMC magazines but they are just not working for me and I want to know why. I did a search online and cannot find anyone having this same issue with CMC mags.

Thank you in advance for any help on this matter.

 

[1911Tuner]

It's an extractor problem. That it doesn't happen with other magazines only means that the ones that it doesn't happen with is because the followers are moving high enough providing a little extra bump as the extractor drops the case, and getting it far enough above the feed lips to keep from being stuffed partway back into the magazine. Unless this is unusual, I'd wager that...even with the magazines that don't cause a problem...the last case is dribbling out of the port or even left lying loose in the port with the slide locked back.

Most often, the cause is a clocking...or rotating extractor. It will behave perfectly during the test, but will turn and drop the case when the gun is fired. More tension may help, but there's also about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

Assuming that the extractor channel isn't mislocated too far to the right...which will be apparent...the cure is to fit an oversized firing pin stop that maintains the extractor in proper orientation.

 

[EnderWiggin]

Thank you for the prompt response 1911Tuner. Alright so then it's the extractor.

Do you have a diagram or picture that clearly illustrates how to firing pin stop affects the extractor's rotation? Am I correct in saying that the extractor has a notch where the firing pin stop edge is that it uses to stop itself from rotating and you are suggesting I get a firing pin stop whose edge extends a little farther to close the possible gap between it and the notch in the extractor?

I have never detail stripped my 1911 so I have never seen how these parts interact and thus am trying to picture it all in my head.

EDIT: Rounds have never dribbled out or been left loose in the ejection port. They have always ejected just fine except when they are jammed into the feed lips.

 

[1911Tuner]

The butt-end of the extractor has a slot milled into it that the right side of the firing pin stop passes through. If there's a lot of clearance between the bottom of the slot and the edge of the stop...clocking is the usual result. Most factory assembled guns do allow it to clock a little, but it's usually not enough to cause a problem, other than a little erratic ejection. On a few...it does exactly what your gun is doing.

There's another possibility, that alothough it's not really common...still happens occasionally.

The barrel is dropping so low onto the bed during extraction that the case is hitting the feed lips hard enough for the case to be ripped loose from the extractor claw after it depresses the mag follower.
The result is the same, but for different reasons. You can check for clocking by trying to rotate the extractor with the tip of a screwdriver blade. A small amount of rotation is acceptable.

Chamber a dummy round...or a live one if you're very careful. Rotate the extractor counter-clockwise, and then pull the round out slowly with the magazine removed. If it's the extractor, it will slip out smoothly and fall down the magwell. If it's the barrel drop, you'll feel a hitch as the barrel forces the round out of the extractor claw...and it will fall through the magwell. You can often watch if being forced down as it clears the chamber.

 

[EnderWiggin]

How exactly would I go about rotating the extractor counter-clockwise? do I have to remove the firing pin stop?

Thanks again for your help on this matter.

 

[1911Tuner]

No. With the hammer cocked, you can access the flat side of the extractor. Place the tip of a screwdriver blade against the bottom and press it inward. Try it first with the gun empty to see how far it will rotate.

 

[EnderWiggin]

Alright so I just did what you told me. There is some slight rotation in the extractor. Not sure if its too much though. I tried turning it counter-clockwise but it was very difficult to push on it at the bottom and move the slide back at the same time.

I did find something interesting, however. There are two rounds that behave totally different from each other. Both are WWB .45 ACP but one round ejects just fine (it is held by the extractor the whole time) and the other round is released or let go by the extractor before it reaches the ejector. I have recorded video of this showing you. It doesn't seem to be coincidence because I was able to reproduce this multiple times with the same two rounds.

What could be the cause of this and why do two of the same type of ammo cause different results? Is it because of the tolerances of the ammo size (one casing may be slightly small than the other and this slight size difference is enough to cause the extractor to let go because it is not tight enough)?

Here is the link to the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBzrKQHjhVk

 

[1911Tuner]

A wide variation in the rim diameters could cause that. The larger the rim, the more tension the extractor exerts on it...and the better "bite" the claw gets.

 

[EnderWiggin]

Alright so is it the firing pin stop or is it the tension of the extractor?

 

[1911Tuner]

As I noted earlier...More tension may help, but there's also about a 50/50 chance that it won't.

It could be that the extractor is clocking, or it could be tension related or it could be that the extractor hook is too short and losing its grip on the case rim...but probably not since it's got enough to pull the case back into the magazine.

When trying to diagnose a problem, we have to go through a process of elimination, starting with the most likely cause and working down to the least. With this particular problem, the extractor is clocking 95% of the time.

 

[EnderWiggin]

Alright 1911Tuner. Thank you very much. I will contact Springfield and see what they say. I really appreciate you taking your time to explain this to me and help me figure out what is going on.

 

[EnderWiggin]

UPDATE: Just received my 1911 back from Springfield. According to the paper that came in the package, they replaced the extractor, reamed the chamber, and recut the breech. I am not exactly sure what the last two things are and I cannot really see any difference in my slide.

I took the gun and my Chip McCormick magazine to the range and ran 150 rounds through it. I loaded 2 rounds into the CMC mag and 2 into a stock Metalform mag and would shoot the Metalform mag and then reload from slide lock and shoot the two in the CMC mag and then check for jams. I did this since the issue was always with the last round in the magazine so I wanted to test as many "last rounds in magazine" as possible.

Had ZERO problems so I guess Springfield fixed it. Also, I tried checking the tension of the extractor before going to the range by doing the whole "slowly pull slide back when a bullet is in the chamber and there is no magazine to see if the bullet is held tight" and it was.

A+ for Springfield customer support once again! Now I need to go buy me some more CMC mags.