FTF Transactions

[griff383]

Maybe I am out of line here but its a question I have to ask...

I noticed a firearm for sale through a popular channel. I noticed the seller was in the next town over. I noticed it was a great price. I offered to do a FTF transaction cash in hand for what they were asking.

P.S. I live in Texas and have a CHL. For those of you not informed about TX CHL laws, once you have a CHL you dont need to have your FFL call in a purchase. You still have to do a 4473 just the same but no call. I informed them that I have one of these when I made my offer.

I got a pretty unique answer in that they were not interested in ANY kind of FTF transaction and that their FFL was the only one who would deal with a potential buyer.

Am I crazy to think that this person is a little nuts and WAY underinformed about how things work?? Im not trying to be mean or say that just because you own a firearm you should know every law, BUT you should understand some basics about the processes. Right? Am I crazy to think this?

 

[jimmyraythomason]

they were not interested in ANY kind of FTF transaction and that their FFL was the only one who would deal with a potential buyer.

this person is a little nuts and WAY underinformed about how things work??

No,I think he set the parameters of the sale to suit his needs. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[rscalzo]

I'm a bit confused. Are you making this transaction with a private person or a dealer?

While not required here in NH, many do process any FTF sales through a local FFL for anyone not personally known by that individual. While perfectly legal in NH, the law also states that the seller must know that the buyer is one legally capable of accepting transfer of a firearm.

The small transfer fee insures piece of mind.

 

[griff383]

I agree that he set things up to suit his needs and have no argument with that, if thats how they feel comfortable then so be it. I should have clarified my concern, it is that there are alot of people who do not understand local practice when it comes to firearm regulations. From the information I recieved from the seller it seemed to ME that they were not informed as to what the regulations were.

I was trying to work with the owner of the firearm, they wanted me to work with their FFL. I also agree that the transfer fee does offer piece of mind, which is why I never ship firearms myself, I know I can do it with proper ID and all that. My fear is that I will screw something up and end up causing delay on the other end of the transaction. FTF sales here in TX are really no different from that of a dealer or store WHEN the buyer has a CHL. The 4473 is filled out and filed, thats it, no calls are made.

 

[nalioth]

FTF sales here in TX are really no different from that of a dealer or store WHEN the buyer has a CHL. The 4473 is filled out and filed, thats it, no calls are made.

FTF sales here in Texas are quite different.

Buyer hands seller the cash.
No forms are filled out.
No calls are made.
Seller hands buyer the gun.
Both have a nice day.

Having a CHL doesn't legally affect FTF sales.

 

[westtx28]

I live in Texas and have a CHL as well. I have made a few FTF transactions recently and as far as the law goes everything you say is correct. Maybe the seller is either afraid to deal with a complete stranger on a gun deal for sefety reasons, or they just don't know the protocol and are erring on the side of caution. I know it sucks. I have made some really good FTF deals and like working that way.

Nalioth is also correct, I usually mention I'm a CHL holder just to kind of break the ice when negotiation the deal on the phone but I've never actually shown the license. The buyer really should look at the Texas issued DL to make sure they are a Texas resident of proper age.

 

[paul]

...in NH, the law also states that the seller must know that the buyer is one legally capable of accepting transfer of a firearm.

Have fun with that...
We, here, only have to NOT KNOW that the buyer is prohibited.
Big difference.

I have never asked if a buyer was prohibited.
Therefore, I could not know if they were...
Therefore, a legal transaction from my end.

I was trying to work with the owner of the firearm, they wanted me to work with their FFL.

If I really wanted the firearm in question, at the price agreed upon, I may allow the seller to pay an FFL, for his "piece" of mind.
Otherwise, he can sell it to someone else.

p

 

[rbernie]

Am I crazy to think that this person is a little nuts and WAY underinformed about how things work?? Im not trying to be mean or say that just because you own a firearm you should know every law, BUT you should understand some basics about the processes. Right? Am I crazy to think this?

It may be nothing more dramatic than the buyer simply not liking the risk exposure of meeting a stranger while one or t'other is carrying cash or a firearm.

It happens.

 

[snubbies]

4473 Form

The 4473 is a form filled out by a dealer and kept in his files as a record of the transaction. If Texas does not require the call in there is no need for the 4473 in a private party FTF

 

[ForumSurfer]

Am I crazy to think that this person is a little nuts and WAY underinformed about how things work??

Yes and no?

I wouldn't do force a buyer to do that, but that's me. I can respect why someone would, though. Some people want a gun out of their name once it leaves their possession. Others don't really care. Others don't trust strangers and want to run the numbers on the gun they are receiving. Whatever works, no skin off of my back.

It is the seller's right to request transfer via ffl or in person with a handshake.

Buyer hands seller the cash.
No forms are filled out.
No calls are made.
Seller hands buyer the gun.
Both have a nice day.

Works that way here, too. But if a seller wants to go through an FFL, so be it.

The seller sets the rules, we (buyers) either play ball or walk away.

 

[jl1966]

Here in Va. FTF is legal, as in I have a gun to sell, an individual has the money, we meet, he gives me money, I give him the gun , end of transaction. However some people are made a little nervous by the gun lobbies propaganda, and the general controversy surrounding any gun transaction. I have been asked to sign hand written acknowledgements of sale, provide I.D., and so forth. It is a minor annoyance, but no big deal really, as I have no malicious intent for the weapons.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Some people want a gun out of their name once it leaves their possession.

+1 that would be my guess. Or they are uneasy about the process and want their FFL to handle everything (maybe it's on consignment there).
They may have a hard time selling it unless it's still a good deal after the FFL fees.

 

[NavyLCDR]

While not required here in NH, many do process any FTF sales through a local FFL for anyone not personally known by that individual.

I must respectfully disagree. It is required in New Hampshire for the FTF sale to go through an FFL if the buyer is not personally known by that individual or if the buyer does not have a pistol license:

http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XII/159/159-14.htm

159:14 Exemption. – None of the provisions of this chapter shall prohibit an individual not licensed under the provisions thereof who is not engaged in the business of selling pistols or revolvers from selling a pistol or revolver to a person licensed under this chapter or to a person personally known to him.

 

[griff383]

Everyone is making some very valid points here. I can see both sides very clear and have no quarells about someone wanting to play it safe either way.

FTF:
No paperwork
No taxes
Cash in hand no fees, shipping, ect....
Along with that though you do have every right to be concerned who you are selling to.

FFL:
Paperwork
Fees (usually)
Tax on something that has already been taxed (this is what really bothers me)
But you do get piece of mind when handing a firearm over to another person you dont know.

ForumSurfer-

You hit the nail on the head, seller sets the terms and we either abide or walk. It just sucks when you find a great deal and then have to weigh if all the red tape really makes it that great of a deal

 

[oneounceload]

Tax on something that has already been taxed (this is what really bothers me)

Not if he is just doing the transfer - if the FFL is a storefront and you are buying from him, then sales tax is collected.

 

[mbogo]

As far as I know, a Fom 4473 is only required when purchasing a (non-antique) firearm from a FFL dealer (except the holder of a C&R license). Many states allow dealers to sell to CHL-holders without the NICS (or state equivalent) check.

Personal sales do not require this form unless one or both parties are dealers (BATFE rules apply to a dealer's personal fireamrs, as well).

The seller's reluctance to handle this on a FTF basis could be due to either fear for their personal safety, or a reluctance to sell to a (potentially) prohibited party. You may have a CHL, but the seller wouldn't know if it had been revoked or suspended.

mbogo

 

[nalioth]

The buyer really should look at the Texas issued DL to make sure they are a Texas resident of proper age.

That doesn't always work, sadly.

FEDS CONVICT TEXAN FOR SELLING A GUN TO ILLEGAL ALIEN WITH TEXAS DRIVER’S LICENSE

Tax on something that has already been taxed (this is what really bothers me)

If this is happening to you, I'd suggest you alert your state's tax department. This is illegal.

 

[M-Cameron]

The buyer really should look at the Texas issued DL to make sure they are a Texas resident of proper age.

That doesn't always work, sadly.

FEDS CONVICT TEXAN FOR SELLING A GUN TO ILLEGAL ALIEN WITH TEXAS DRIVER’S LICENSE

WOW.....that really is sad........im beginning to think it might be a good idea to move to Mexico...and then smuggle myself back in as an illegal.....they have it better here than American citizens do.

i find it absurd that the bust the guy who hadnt done anything wrong.....but let the guy who is in the country illegally walk free........and who the heck gave him a drivers license?!!

 

[Bubbles]

Tax on something that has already been taxed (this is what really bothers me)

Not if he is just doing the transfer - if the FFL is a storefront and you are buying from him, then sales tax is collected.

Some states, such as Washington (state, not DC) require all FFL's to collect and remit sales/use tax on transferred firearms.
http://dor.wa.gov/content/getaformorpublication/publicationbysubject/taxtopics/firearmtransfers.aspx

As for the OP, it sounds like the seller doesn't know you, so he wants to do the transfer through an FFL so he knows the purchaser isn't a prohibited person. This is fully understandable in TX considering the feds/ATF have been cracking down on non-FFL's selling firearms to illegal immigrants recently.

 

[westtx28]

That doesn't always work, sadly.

FEDS CONVICT TEXAN FOR SELLING A GUN TO ILLEGAL ALIEN WITH TEXAS DRIVER’S LICENSE

Yeah, OK, that scares the crap out of me. I have never sold a gun to someone I didn't know in a FTF but I have bought a few. Wow...

 

[kwelz]

I would bet there is a bit more to that story than is being told.

 

[NavyLCDR]

WOW.....that really is sad........im beginning to think it might be a good idea to move to Mexico...and then smuggle myself back in as an illegal.....they have it better here than American citizens do.

You got that right.

 

[CapnMac]

Ok, one thing I require in a sale is a bill of sale. Stock, lumber, firearms, all the same; if money changes hands, ought to be a record of how much for what. That's me; most businesses, too.

Which makes the FTF through FFL seem dog-legged.

A agrees to sell [item] to B for [price] Ok.
Suppose I'm the FFL. A walks in and says "I sold this [item] to B, you handle that."
I'm likely to go huh?
If I understand this right, (AT)FE says I need to log the arm into my inventory if it is in my possession. But, I've not bought the thing. Do I give A a receipt? Does B come and give A money, or does the money come through me?
Again, I'm applying only RKI smarts to this, but don't I need a book entry for each of the 4473s? And I have to 4473 to transfer to B, right?

Rubs me wrong on so many levels. If A has [item] at the FFL on consignment, how can A negotiate in good faith with B? Price ought to be what ever is tagged on [item].

If I'm the FFL, B saunters in and says, "Hey I bought that, give it here." Yeah right buddy.
Suppose B looks at me and says "Ain't no way I'm paying [price] for [item]!" and storms out, then what?

Near as I can tell I'd have to be related to A as the FFL.

 

[NavyLCDR]

CapnMac,

Thousand of private transactions occur every week through FFLs. How do you think gunbroker or gunsamerica works?

1. I buy the gun from Mr. Seller on gunbroker and transfer the funds to Mr. Seller.
2. I send the receipt for the transaction to my FFL with Mr. Seller's name and address and I send my FFL's info to Mr. Seller (or my FFL does)
3. Mr. Seller now sends MY gun, that I purchased to my FFL. Note: it's not Mr. Seller's gun anymore... I have paid Mr. Seller for it and already purchased it. Mr. Seller probably sends a copy of his driver's license along with the gun.
4. My FFL receives the gun, enters it into his bound book and calls me.
5. I go to my FFL, fill out the 4473, in WA a NICS call is required no matter what, but that doesn't matter because even without a NICS call the FFL still has to do a 4473 to take the gun out of his bound book.
6. I pay the FFL for his transfer fee, and leave with MY gun that I had previously purchased. Actually, the FFL I use does transfers such as this for free for active duty military, but I know he likes Busch Beer!

A private FTF going through an FFL would be no different except that Mr. Seller would hand deliver the gun to the FFL, more than likely.

 

[Guns and more]

If I were the seller, I would want a paper trail.
If I were a buyer, I would not.