FTRB Update, Saga continues

Status
Not open for further replies.

rhtwist

Member
Joined
Nov 23, 2004
Messages
698
Howdy,
In another thread I described a failure to return to battery that occurred fairly consistently and when press checked the slide would lock in place with the rear of the cartridge out of the chamber about 1/8th of an inch. Since this began occurring after the firearm returned from the factory for ejecting the empties into my face, I must say I was pleased before firing that other issues were fixed also. Unfortunately the FTRB problem came back with it. 1911Tuner suggested I remove the extractor and hand function the pistol and see if the problem went away. It did. I contacted the manufacturer and not wishing to send the pistol back or cost them more I asked if I could try polishing the extractor myself. This was o.k.ed by the Repair Manager. The polishing helped, I was going very slowly and lightly, but the press check problem was almost gone and the FTRB while firing significantly reduced. Unfortunately, I noticed that the firing pin stop was loose. You could move it up and down in it's slot with slight finger pressure. The repair manager confirmed that this could be allowing the extractor to move and be causing or contributing to my FTRB issue. While firing it the gun stopped with the slide halfway going forward. I examined and saw that the firing pin was stuck in the fully extended position and the firing pin stop had slid down, blocking the firing pin's return and jamming the slide. The radius on the bottom of the firing pin stop showed gouges. The manufacturer told me not to fire the pistol further and issued a recall shipping order. They requested the top end, the barrel, slide, recoil spring, recoil spring plug, recoil spring quide and barrel bushing. I must say they expedited the repair and I got it back with a repair order that the recoil spring, recoil spring plug, the firing pin, firing pin spring, firing pin stop and the extractor were replaced and the breechface was polished. I cleaned it and installed to the frame. I first noted that I could not hand eject live cartridges, they jammed up in the mag area and ejection port.
I took the pistol to the range and fired somewhere between 100-230 rounds of WWB 230 FMJ (the same box that functioned in the pistol previously) and some Remington 230 FMJ. Approximately over 1/3rd of the time the pistol failed. It seems that 99% of the failure was that the empty was partially up to halfway out of the chamber, the slide had cocked the hammer and on return to battery began stripping the next round from the magazine and jamming the slide halfway open. So I had to drop the magazine, difficult as the top round was partially out and then reload that round correctly in the mag, then hold the slide open and jiggle the pistol until the empty fell out. This occurred with different mags, multiple and singly in one mag and IIRC independent of the location of the cartridge in the mag. The other failures were empties sitting on the magazine some turned 180% some not. It appears that the extractor slipped off of the empty's case rim. The Range Master's opinion was that the extractor didn't look new and the extractor lip was definitely too short. I do not know this for a fact as I am a user not an armourer. The manufacturer stated that it did not exhibit these problem during testing on another frame.
Can anyone advise me as to what may be the cause of the problem, all opinions greatly accepted.
rhtwist
 
What brand of gun is this?

I am going to assume the round is behind the extractor tip and not in front of it.

I have to look to the extractor to be a big contributor to the problem. When feeding it sounds like you are either getting binding , the rim is not slipping easy under the extractor when moving up against the breach face. The empties sitting in the gun after firing tells me the rim is not being held during extraction and bounces.

If this is a conventional internal extractor, I would get on the phone to gunsmiths in the area to find a GI or Colt extractor. I would not get a Wilson Bullet Proof or the like that say it holds the round closer to the breach face. It sounds like your gun needs a bit more room from the breach face to the tip of the extractor. If the extractor is clocking, your best option is to get an oversize firing pin stop (FPS) from EGW (Evolution Gun Works). This requires some file work to fit the FPS and, optionally, adjust the bottom curve.

The extractor needs to be tensioned properly. With the slide off. Remove the extractor. Take tension off the extractor by gently and a little bit at a time bend the tip more to the right side. You can use the extractor tunnel to do the slight bending. Reinstall the extractor, firing pin, spring and stop. Place a live round under the extractor. Jiggle the slide and rotate it. If the live round stays in place, you have sufficient tension. This will help feeding.

If the existing extractor tip is too short, that may be causing the extraction problem. The new extractor may help.

Magazines can be a big problem as well. Since you are having problems, I would locate a magazine with hybrid feed lips, Colt 7 round (not 8 rd mag) or a Checkmate with hybrid feed lips or a USGI with tapered feed lips. What you don't want are the wadcutter or parallel feed lips (Wilson, McCormick, Mec-Gar, Colt 8 rd) they hold the round too low in the mag. Holding the round higher will feeding and will help push the empty up during extraction and get it out of the ejection port.
 
Last edited:
Hello 10X,
Thank you for responding. This problem occurs in 4 Colt 7 rounders, Wilson 8 rounders and some Colt marked mags with rounded followers with a dimple. They have never given me problems before this last repair. The Range Master examined the firearm and mentioned that it did not look new and the extractor lip looked to short. I don't know from personal experience. This is the first time this pistol has exhibited this problem. Investigating further I found I could eject live rounds by hand cycling as long as there were more cartridges in the magazine. Also I inserted a live cartidge and slowly pulled the slide back examining the extractor lip and cartridge rim. The cartridge was pulled out but the rim didn't come near the extractor lip, it was pulled by the side tension of the flat just behing the extractor lip, until the cartridge was fully out of the chamber. I did the test again with cartridges in the magazine and this time the extractor did contact the case rim all the way out, although it did not IMO seem deep enough. Not being a gunsmith I don't know. It reportedly has a new factory adjusted extractor in it, but that and a quarter won't buy me a stamp. I did put a cartridge under the extractor with the slide off and jiggled it and it did move but not fall out. The extractor held the cartridge quite away from the breechface.
In regards to the position of the extractor during the failure I believe it must have been pulling the empty out, as they all were approx. 1/2 way out and then slipped off. It did not fail like this prior to the last repair and it is repeatable and witnessed. The other times that it did not fail it appeared to function fine. Extremely confused as the company advised me that they do will not fix it again, but will return my purchase price. When I'm ready to disclose the whole story the company will be prominently mentioned and all the problems I've had with their product. I'm afraid that changing the extractor will void any warranty and I am now contacting several Vice Presidents to advise them of the problem. The pistol other than this fault seem perfect.
 
Well, you have looked at everthing I would have.

The extractor claw should be long enough to grab the cartridge rim almost fully. Without seeing it it is tough to decide whether the extractor claw is long enough or not.

I can understand where you would not want to mess with the extractor. Just putting a different one in temporarily to see if it worked better shouldn't void any warranty. The factory supplied one could be put right back in.

I cannot think of a better answer for you at the moment.

I find it odd that the company says they would rather give you a refund rather than try to fix the gun. I don't understand that at all.

If I can think of anything else, I will put in another reply.
 
Hello Gentlemen,
Thank you for the advice on trying a different extractor. Might just get the testosterone to do it. They have taken the attitude I believe due to it's numerous returns for other problems, IMHO.

Hey Kruzr,
No it is not classified but I don't want them anymore animosity toward me, in the hopes that they will honor their warranty. If not I'll post it and the circumstances surrounding it. I got my fingers crossed, difficult to type!
rhtwist
 
Hello Tuner,
They installed a new firing pin stop, firing pin, firing pin spring, extractor (supposedly tuned), recoil spring, and recoil spring plug, polished the breechface to fix that problem. It was then that the current problem of failure to extract empties approx. 1/3rd of the time began occurring and also can't hand cycle a live cartridge unless there are still cartridges in the magazine. I am at wits end. Thanks for any of your expert insight you might consider important. Thanks for your response.
Glenn
 
Will do! Have several of the extra strength ones that come with the recoil springs. How can I fix the extraction problem? Any ideas I hope I hope.
rhtwist
 
Does the extractor clock? Can you rotate it in it's channel by pushing on the flat at the top or bottom at the rear of the slide?
 
Hello kruzr,
Don't know why I didn't think of it but yes it will clock a small amount and will also move in and out of the tunnel enought to see. Thanks for thinking of it.
rhtwist
 
Howdy to all,
Further examination on failure to extract and hand eject live rounds. I've found that live rounds will eject as long as it is not the last round in magazine. Also without the firing pin or firing pin spring installed, the firing pin stop falls out under it's own weight. Suprisingly the extractor falls out of the extractor tunnel under it's own weight with no shaking. With the extractor and firing pin in, the firing pin can be clocked by pushing at the flat either on the top or bottom. Light finger pressure and push the extractor further into the tunnel with stop in place and pushing the extractor front will move it back out where the end is flush with the rear of slide. A live cartridge chambered with the slide slowly pulled back until the round is completely out of chamber shows that the case is held in by side pressure from the groove flat and it does'nt come within a rim width of the extractor lip. This was with no rounds in the magazine. With rounds in the magazine, the extractor does contact the cartridge rim all the way out. Do these symptoms seem normal or desireable and might they be contributing to my failure to extract issue? thanks for any help.
rhtwist
 
Thanks for the info. Should I bend the extractor so that the hook is closer to the centerline of pistol or away? Bending it will not stop the clocking problem and the in and out motion of the extractor, will it? I compared the extractor to an extractor from a Colt Gold Cup. The lip is rounded and has approx. 1/32nd height at the highest location in the middle, before the lip is rounded. At the top of the extractor the lip is like 1/64th. On the Colt, the lip of the extractor is straight compared to the groove along it full length and hold a consistent height of approx. 3/64th. Also the extractor on this gun has the lower groove ramp much higher than the Colt's approx a little less than 1/3rd the height of the extractor groove. It is noticeably closer to the middle of the groove. Thanks again for your responses. Still need help.
rhtwist
 
Bend it to move the hook closer to the centerline. It may stop the clocking and it may not. Start with just enough to make the extractor a little tighter in the channel and test-fire it. We'll get into the other details later...if necessary.
 
Hey Tuner,
I ordered an EGW extractor and an oversive firing pin stop. Due to the cost of ammo, do you suggest I wait and fit them before firing. Also what is that radius you like to put on the bottom of the EGW flat of the firing pin stop? Thanks for your sage advise.
rhtwist
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Hello Tuner,
Tried your solution No luck. Extractor doesn't fall out but still getting the same failure to extract with the empty halfway out of the chamber and the slide pushing the next round into it, jamming. I did note that it never does it on the last round. Also when the gun is jammed, I have to use one hand to push the release and the other to force the mag out. This allows the slide to close on the empty. Each time the extractor grabs the empty and when I hand cycle it ejects the empty. The profile of the extractor lip is round, not rectangular as noted in picture in the adjust extractor sites I've looked at. It is about the same dimension in radius as the round part of the extractor just behind the extractor groove. I adjusted it 3 times and always the same result. The manufacturer believes IMO that I am purposely damaging the firearm so I can spend more of my money on wasted ammo and range fees and because I like to talk to them. They have advised that they will not honor their warranty and will refund my purchase price. Please help.
rhtwist
 
You don't know how much I wish I could. Mother-in-law moved in to recuperate from an illness, so I'm stuck. Thanks for answering. What I believe is happening is that the round in the mag push the empty off the rounded extractor. With no rounds to push it up it ejects the empty correctly. If you put an empty in it, it will hand eject it every time. Guess I'm in need a new extractor and might as well put in a EGW firing pin stop in it at the same time. I was going to Mars Hill in the next week to visit a friend that lives there, no luck. Dang it.
rhtwist
 
What I believe is happening is that the round in the mag push the empty off the rounded extractor.

Those were my thoughts, too...but without the gun on the bench, it's hard to tell why the extractor is dropping it. The radiused hook won't have anything to do with it. If the bottom corner of the area behind the hook has been beveled too deep, it could let the case fall far enough to take a hit from the cartridge in the magazine.

Chamber a round at full speed from the magazine. Remove the mag. Pull the slide slowly to extract the chambered round, but not far enough for it to hit the ejector.

The round should sag slightly, but it shouldn't fall down the magwell, even if you shake the pistol up and down a couple times. If it does, bend it a little more to increase the tension.
 
I've gotten the extractor tight enough to start showing the FTRB problem. Will giver a shot. Report back.
rhtwist
 
I appreciate your help. Will continue to attempt to get the manufacturer to respond and maybe send me an extractor. What to do when a company offers a lifetime warranty, but after numerous repairs, they never get it correct, until they finally refuse to work on the pistol anymore, yet they will not allow any other gunsmith work except factory work or the warranty is voided?
rhtwist
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top