Full auto isn't any more dangerous than anything else.

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No, you did

The weapons available at the time were the best money could buy, as good as the military's

The weapons we are allowed to have, in general, would be considered third world rejects for miltary use.

When the document was written the population at the time was capable of overthrowing the goverment, but the clause was still written in.

The population today is not even capable of holdong private religious services much less keeping the goverment from taking their homes away.

A corrupt goverment will always have to fear it's subjects an honest goverment does not
Which is one reason the 2nd amendment is in there, too many people have forgotten that
 
joab said:
No, you did

The weapons available at the time were the best money could buy, as good as the military's

The weapons we are allowed to have, in general, would be considered third world rejects for miltary use.

When the document was written the population at the time was capable of overthrowing the goverment, but the clause was still written in.

The population today is not even capable of holdong private religious services much less keeping the goverment from taking their homes away.

A corrupt goverment will always have to fear it's subjects an honest goverment does not
Which is one reason the 2nd amendment is in there, too many people have forgotten that


I understand your point but completely disagree with it as I have already stated.
 
Andrew S,
Humor me and please tell us where you would like to see the line drawn. I am also curious about your background and experience with these tools you would like to see banned. Military service? Family member killed by guns? I am sincerely trying to understand someone on a firearms discussion board with your point of view. Thanks.
 
let me jump in before Andrew responds

There's a quote/paraphrase from Stargate regarding the staff weapons: "they are loud, they are scary, but they are not terribly accurate or efficient ... they are effective as terror weapons not killing weapons"

think the same apply here for FA firing in untrained/unaimed use.
 
Lee F said:
Andrew S,
Humor me and please tell us where you would like to see the line drawn. I am also curious about your background and experience with these tools you would like to see banned. Military service? Family member killed by guns? I am sincerely trying to understand someone on a firearms discussion board with your point of view. Thanks.

My line is drawn pretty close to where it currently stands. I dont want to see anything banned. I just understand why certain things ARE banned and dont want it to change. I think that the barrel length restrictions and some of the current importing restrictions are wrong. I think some of the state/county CCW laws are ridiculous.

I dont have or need any formal training or experience with these tools. I am just aware of what things are capable of. I am on a firearms discussion board to learn about and discuss firearms just as you are. Is this forum not available to casual shooters who are mostly comfortable with current laws/restrictions?
 
Is this forum not available to casual shooters who are mostly comfortable with current laws/restrictions?

Of course it is.

Many of the members joined this site with the same beliefs and attitudes as you.

For some reason if you stick around THR long enough you will likely become a knuckle dragging, camo wearing, machinegun toting Libertarian.

:evil: :D
 
Thanks for the answer Andrew. If I understand your point of view it's a good start even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

The gun hobby is just like most families. It has a little of everything in it, from the tactical shooters to duck hunters to bench rest shooters to sporting clay group. Just like most families we won't always get along every time we get together but we still should try. We all should check ourselves every now and then to make sure we aren't the crazy cousin in the family too.
 
Lee F said:
Thanks for the answer Andrew. If I understand your point of view it's a good start even if I don't necessarily agree with it.

The gun hobby is just like most families. It has a little of everything in it, from the tactical shooters to duck hunters to bench rest shooters to sporting clay group. Just like most families we won't always get along every time we get together but we still should try. We all should check ourselves every now and then to make sure we aren't the crazy cousin in the family too.


I suppose so. And due to my minority opinion here it might be best for me to stick to the Tools and Technologies sections.
 
Where do I draw the line?

If Special forces can have it.....THEN I WANT IT:). Plain, simple, and totaly within reason. Hell I could be facing the special forces of this or another nation in the tumultuos days ahead, nobody knows. So why shouldn't I be equally armed as somebody I might have to face?:uhoh:
 
Any weapon's "reasonableness" for use is dependent on potential threat to innocent bystanders. In a perfect world that respected our right to arms and self defense we would have a right to any weapon we want BUT we could be charged with "reckless endangerment" for actions that put our neighbors at undue risk.

By this standard, a full-auto .22LR home defense gun makes more sense than a 5-shot 50BMG in a typical suburban tract house situation. The 50 (unless loaded with frangible ammo that comes apart into dust or BBs at the first thing it hits) will go through a dozen or more homes and would make a psycho home defense gun. The 22s on the other hand will be stopped or radically slowed by most home exteriors so even if you spray 150 out per mag, who cares as long as the target was a valid threat and you greased him good?

If on the other hand you're running a cargo ship across the South China Seas or off the coast of Somalia and you're worried about pirates, multiple turret-mounted full-auto 50BMGs make perfect sense...along with high explosives, incendiaries, 20mm or bigger cannons, what have you.

200 years from now, you've got a nice little asteroid mining homestead, your nearest neighbor is 800,000 miles away and you set up a nuke-based home defense system for space pirates, kewl, not a problem.

This "bystander threat level based standard" makes MUCH more sense than arbitrary limits on full auto, caliber, explosives, etc.

Andrew S:

There is strong supporting evidence that the purpose of the 14th Amendment (1868) was to ensure that the entire "privileges and immunities of US citizenship" were applied to the newly freed black population - and that phrase had been found by the US Supreme Court in 1856 to mean basically "the entire Bill Of Rights plus the traditional rights of free Englishman such as the right to travel"...and specifically including the 2nd Amendment right to arms.

If this interpretation is correct, it means three things:

1) Since blacks didn't yet have the vote (that was the 15th Amendment of 1872) then the right to arms was being decoupled from the "political right" of militia duty which in 1792 was very similar to the right to jury duty. In other words, blacks in 1868 were declared to have "civil rights" but not "political rights" (yet) the same as a free white woman would have had at the time. The right to arms was being transformed from a political right to group and community self defense (for any purpose up to and including standing up against a crooked/tyrannical government) to a personal right to self defense.

Multiple quotes from the key author of the 14th (John Bingham) support this view. See also the books "That Every Man Be Armed" (1984) by law professor Stephen Halbrook of George Mason or "The Bill Of Rights" (1998) by Akhil Reed Amar of Yale, two people with wildly different political stances who independently came across the same Bingham quotes. Halbrook is a lawyer for the NRA when he's not teaching law but Amar is well known in Liberal circles and clearly didn't LIKE what he was writing.

2) If Amar and Halbrook are correct, then it's not the guns of 1792 we should be looking at as "standard models of possible weapons". It's the guns of 1868. And that's a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. The Gatling Gun was invented in 1862 and fielded by 1863/64. The Mormons had invented the snubnose big-bore defensive revolver meant for concealment by 1858 or so (look up the "Avenging Angels"). Entire Northern Regiments had been equipped with 15-shot lever-action rifles and by 1868 these were firmly in civilian hands. And everybody knew S&W's patent on the through-bore revolver cylinder was going to run out by 1872 (eagerly awaited) and were starting to at least think about what cool new bangtoys would result...some of the designs that DID result are still available in practically every gun shop in America, esp. the Colt SAA and derivatives...and are still highly effective weapons even in the original caliber with period-reproduction ammo.

3) Finally, if the goal was to arm blacks against the rising tide of KKK (and there was a lot of Federal legislation to do just that between 1866 and 1870), then the framers of the 14th would have known that open carry of personal defensive handguns would have gotten Southern blacks shot on sight. Only *concealed* carry would have been effective for defense against crooked sheriffs, the KKK and the like.

The Second Amendment in it's original "militia format" may be a bit dated, although not completely dead. But in the "personal defense format" of the 14th Amendment, it's VERY much alive and kicking.
 
Not more dangerous.

Most hand held, non crew served automatics are terribly innacurate due to lack of controllability. However, facing a group of thugs bent on looting or other nonsense, the psychological factor may be of value.
 
I think that the whole FA argument is a moot point for most uses.
When I pull the trigger on a load of 3" 00 buck I send the equivalent of half a magazine from a submachine gun at something.
If I can be trusted with my Mossberg, I can be trusted with an UZI.
Both are deadly. That is why they are effective.
Both require responsible handling or people will end up hurt.
From the philosophical standpoint, what is the difference?

From the practical standpoint, semi auto on my FAL suits me just fine.
But it would still be great to have a M240B machine gun with all the fixins'. Not because I need it, but because I am an American and as long as I am not hurting anyone doing it, I should be able to do whatever makes me happy.
Shooting a belt fed GPMG into an old strip mine cut is no more dangerous than shooting an Enfield into the same strip mine cut.
People ask me why I should be able to do things.
I ask them why I should not.
 
goon said:
I think that the whole FA argument is a moot point for most uses.
When I pull the trigger on a load of 3" 00 buck I send the equivalent of half a magazine from a submachine gun at something.
If I can be trusted with my Mossberg, I can be trusted with an UZI.
Both are deadly.

Bingo. With all the fuss over hand-held auto weapons...and lately, even semi-auto...the unenlightened have completely ignored, or are plain ignorant of one of the most deadly short-range instruments to come down the pike...and it predates machineguns and submachineguns by a good many years. The ubiquitous sawed-off shotgun. (18 inch minimum, of course)

The "Trench Gun" was so horrifyingly effective in WW1 that the Germans complained to the Hague Convention over their use.
 
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