Game wardens must follow US Constitution?

[Laphroaig]

I found this interesting, as it has often been discussed that PA Game Protectors have powers greater than any other Law Enforcement Agency.

http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2014/03/man-successfully-takes-the-fifth-in-deer-killing-case/

 

[Patocazador]

It's unusual that the state's atty. chose not to defend the suit. Obviously, they knew it was a poorly written law.

 

[buck460XVR]

It's unusual that the state's atty. chose not to defend the suit. Obviously, they knew it was a poorly written law.

I wonder if it had more to do with the fact it was just a $150 fine and the defendant spent 30 times that amount or more to appeal the initial decision. It may also be that the statement by the defendant that led to the appeal, also had no effect as to the successful prosecution of the primary crime of "Jack Lighting" committed by the daughter and her friend. To appeal the appeal and continue the process may have done little, other than to prove a point.

 

[jmr40]

often been discussed that PA Game Protectors have powers greater than any other Law Enforcement Agency.

Not just PA. I forget the details, but since game wardens are often dealing with federal migratory birds they all have federal LE authority where most local LE do not. They do still have to follow the law, they just have expanded authority compared to others.

 

[IlikeSA]

Game wardens do have a lot of power, but are not above the Constitution. However, they can "trespass" on your land without a warrant to check on game and hunting procedures. I have heard, but cannot confirm, they can check your freezer, with reasonable suspicion, to see the amount of fish and game you have harvested.

 

[Loc n Load]

Co's / Game Warden's

Depending on their jurisdiction, C/O's / Game Warden's have very broad jurisdictional authority..and if they have probable cause they can search....back in 94, I heard my dogs barking one dark & rainy night and went to investigate.....when I opened my back door, there stood a uniformed conservation officer ( they get snippy if you call them "game wardens" here in Indiana). I knew the officer and asked him "what's happening?"....he said " I may be here to arrest you." Someone had called in a license plate to the "1-800- Poacher hot line....and it came back to my pick up truck.....which he had already went into my shed and searched....and discovered the truck sitting on jack stands, hood up, grill, radiator, water pump laying on my work bench.
Another reason I never took to a life of crime....I can be sitting home, minding my own business and still almost get into big trouble.

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I could be wrong, but here in Fl they have to have reasonable suspicion to check your vehicle/trespass/search private property. I have refused to allow a warden to check my vehicle on occasion to prove a point and I was told to have a good day. That was years ago and things have changed since 9/11 so I don't know if that would hold water anymore, but it should. I don't feel comfortable having some leo rooting thru my vehicle which is usually a mess anyway. "Do you mind if I check your cooler", Yes sir I do. Do I have anything to hide, no, but I value my freedom.

I have had a fair amount of experience with the Customs Service and I can tell all that you are guilty until proven innocent, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

 

[Blue68f100]

I hardly ever see them when I'm hunting. But I have 2 lakes that I fish that it's a sure bet to have a visit from them while I'm on the water. Another lake I fish, I see the lake patrol person every time I'm on the lake, weekday or weekend. There mainly for check safety equipment and make sure your not drinking and driving.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Game wardens do have a lot of power, but are not above the Constitution. However, they can "trespass" on your land without a warrant to check on game and hunting procedures. I have heard, but cannot confirm, they can check your freezer, with reasonable suspicion, to see the amount of fish and game you have harvested.

I've heard this too, I saw an article recently and I think it said they can't do that.
.

 

[oneounceload]

FL wardens are often brought along on drug busts as they do not need a search warrant if there is a "suspicion" that a game violation has happened.

 

[eastbank]

the police and bunny cops along with carp cops have sure changed in the last 50 years, as a young man hunting with some friends one of our group shot a small spike buck and horns were not quite the 3 inches needed to be legal, the game warden was called when we got to my friends house(if reported the fine was only 25.00),when the warden arrived and was looking at the deer he lit up a long(3")smoke and took several drags while lifting the deers head and then put the butt up against the horns and said it looks like its 3 inches to me and left. they don,t make them like that any more. eastbank.

 

[Patocazador]

Back then there were wardens like that and there was also the other end of the spectrum. In Dallas County Alabama there was only one warden. He operated with his own set of rules and extorted money etc. from some people. He was finally arrested for heading up a deer poaching/selling operation after they assigned a second officer to the county.

 

[zeos]

you always hear about police using game wardens to do searches without warrants, but I have never actually seen it reported.

 

[Stony]

I've heard cases of wardens seizing firearms too, when there was no need. Illegal searches just seem to be part of the territory with wardens, as they do whatever they want, and let the courts sort it out later. From a warden's perspective, they can normally get a person to plead to a lesser charge and not make a big deal out of an illegal search or seizure because of the price of a person defending themselves in court. Writing a citation is easy for them and the warden doesn't have to pay for legal representation like the public does.

 

[buck460XVR]

If you refuse a search, you add to probable cause. With probable cause they can hold you till they get a search warrant. At least that's what the GW tells our students in Hunter Safety. They can even tow your vehicle while they hold you until a search warrant is obtained. True? I dunno, but they always impress on the student's that telling the truth will always get you less trouble. Anyone that has gone to Canada fishing from the U.S. has probably gone by the unlucky guy at the border with the contents of his camper spread out across the street. Most times the only probable cause for the search was the reluctance to reply and answer questions with respect.

Hotspots for Spring walleye fishing around here are below the dams on the Mississippi and Wisconsin Rivers. When the fish are running you can walk across the boats. It is a well known fact that those boats and the folks in them are under heavy scrutiny by Wardens with spotting scopes, cameras and binos. Still, folks still try and hide an extra fish or two. Have seen wardens dump fish from thermoses, battery boxes, coolers, just about any place you can think of. Of course those guilty always deny first that they have any extra fish and then always have a look of surprise on their face when it is found.

The majority of Wardens are honest and overworked. They come up against folks with guns on a daily basis. They do not make the rules or limits, only enforce them. They get called outta bed and from their kid's birthday parties more than the average G.P. For the most part they do a 'ell of a job of protecting our natural resources and make hunting and fishing safe. For the life of me, I have never understood the general animosity towards them.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

My cousin retired early from the game and fish commission because he got tired of being drawn into drug cases.

 

[Patocazador]

A game warden can search anything in your control if you have been hunting or fishing .. or they think you have. Your signed license has a waiver in the small print. However, they cannot search your person without probable cause. For example, if you are duck hunting or fishing with waders and have a hidden duck or fish in your waders, they cannot search you without your permission. If they do it without permission and find a fish etc., the charges will be thrown out in court.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

If you refuse a search, you add to probable cause. With probable cause they can hold you till they get a search warrant. At least that's what the GW tells our students in Hunter Safety.

I'm a LEO in Pennsylvania and I haven't heard it put exactly that way before. Generally speaking, if someone refuses to let me search their vehicle and I have reason to believe that there are drugs in the vehicle for example, I can call a K-9 unit to do a walk around of the vehicle. If the dog "hits" on something, I now have cause to search. By simply refusing a search, it doesn't add probable cause. Search warrants are actually tougher to get than how it is portrayed on TV or in books. LEO's (and I assume GW's) usually luck out with the common criminal though, criminals are generally sloppy/stupid. More often than not, they leave something in plain view that would give us enough evidence to search the vehicle. I can't tell you how many times I have heard "nah man, I don't smoke weed" and there is a burnt joint sitting clearly in the ashtray.

 

[Jlr2267]

If you refuse a search, you add to probable cause. With probable cause they can hold you till they get a search warrant. At least that's what the GW tells our students in Hunter Safety.

That GW would be circumventing the law and the US Constitution if he actually took that approach. Without probable cause, there is no need for a search to begin with...with probable cause, a search is legal and there is no need to ask.

If LE is asking, they are admitting they do not have probable cause.

 

[ericbc7]

Not to denigrate Leo's in general, but it doesn't take a genius k-9 handler to train his partner to "hit" on subtle command. That said thank god for smart dogs and honest handlers!

 

[d2wing]

In our state a game warden does have powers that are not constitutional under search and seizure but as I understand it, you give implied consent when you buy a license to hunt or fish or take game that is part of the public trust. That is now extended to boat usage concerning invasive species.

 

[buck460XVR]

I'm a LEO in Pennsylvania and I haven't heard it put exactly that way before.

...and odds are it was not "exactly" as the GW stated it. My paraphrasing or interpretation may be different from his exact statement. The just of it, I believe to our students is, if you're innocent, than acting as if you are not, is not the way to go. If you are guilty, then admission and cooperation will help your case.

 

[Girodin]

Generally speaking, if someone refuses to let me search their vehicle and I have reason to believe that there are drugs in the vehicle for example, I can call a K-9 unit to do a walk around of the vehicle.

Provided the time it takes the K-9 to get there does not unreasonably extend the scope of the stop.

If you refuse a search, you add to probable cause.

I deal with 4th amendment issues daily in my profession. If an officer does not have probable cause, a person not giving consent (something the are well within their rights to do and might do for any number of reasons other than because they have something illegal) is not going to give the officer probable cause.

If LE is asking, they are admitting they do not have probable cause.

Not necessarily. An officer might simply be hedging against a motion to suppress. Probable cause determinations are highly fact specific determinations. Sometimes asking is just adding another warrant exception to the mix and making any claim of an illegal search that much more difficult. I have often seen officers ask for permission to search in instances that I believe they would be well into accepted warrantless search exceptions. Just as I often see them follow a driver and get two or three traffic violations on camera before making a stop.

If you are guilty, then admission and cooperation will help your case.

I'm not sure that is really true. I see lots of people be convicted only because they make admissions. I always feel bad for them when the only reason a case is able to go forward, and go forward they do, is because they were honest and made incriminating statements.

 

[Girodin]

It's unusual that the state's atty. chose not to defend the suit.

I wonder if it had more to do with the fact it was just a $150 fine and the defendant spent 30 times that amount or more to appeal the initial decision.

I am guessing that no one in the AG's office though they had any good faith arguments to make. It is blatantly unconstitutional. It basically criminalizes exercising one's right to remain silent in the face of questioning.

I think it is a very safe proposition that a game warden cannot violate the fourth in conducting searches or seizures. Now where the lines of "reasonableness" have been drawn with respect to situations they commonly encounter is a different question. I have not dealt with many game warden cases. My curiosity has been piqued enough that I think I will try and find some specific case law (which may well vary by state, states can provide greater protection in their constitutions than what one has under the federal constitution).

 

[Art Eatman]

Speaking only about Texas, I've heard about all this "A game warden can search..." stuff. Trouble is, I never can find anybody with first-hand knowledge.

If a game warden sees a half-butchered deer hanging in a carport or a tree in the yard, and it's August, he has a pretty good reason to figure there is illegal meat inside the house.