Gelatin test: .30 carbine PPU 110 gr JSP & 10mm Norma 170 gr JHP

[chopinbloc]

.30 carbine fired from M1 carbine into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 556.9 fps, 3.7"

Average velocity: 1,955 fps
Penetration: 17.8"
Retained weight: 105.8 gr
Max expansion: 0.640"
Min expansion: 0.525"

I got an error on the impact velocity so I took a five shot average. Here are those figures:

1,975
1,936
1,904
2,025
1,933







Original 10mm Norma 170 gr JHP fired from 4.25" S&W 1076 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 556.9 fps, 3.7"

Impact velocity: 1,219 fps
Penetration: 23.1"
Retained weight: 170.4 gr
No expansion

 

[Sam Cade]

Fascinating!!

I would have assumed more penetration from the .30 carbine.


It is amazing how much effect that plugging can have on JHP pistol bullets.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

An FMJ in the carbine would have given more penetration, but expansion from the SP to .60 is not bad. Depends on what you seek as to which to use, SP or FMJ. Why the four layers of denim, though? Why not just plug the HP with hardened Gorilla glue? It would be interesting to test the Norma bullet against the Winchester 175 Silvertip or some other comparable 170 gr bullets (PMC, Hornady?).

 

[chopinbloc]

Ask and you shall receive:



10mm Winchester 175 gr Silvertip fired from 4.5" barrel EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 548.7 fps, 3.5"


Impact velocity: 1,171 fps
Penetration: 12.9"
Retained weight: 171.1 gr
Max expansion: 0.687"
Min expansion: 0.594"




10mm Hornady 175 gr Critical Duty fired from 4.5" EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 580.1 fps, 3.4"


Impact velocity: 1,119 fps
Penetration: 13.1"
Retained weight: 175.0 gr (counting the 2.0 gr rubber tip)
Max expansion: 0.652"
Min expansion: 0.566"


And 165 gr tests:
















The denim is included as part of IWBA test protocol to represent heavy clothing. Some designs, especially older ones, have trouble expanding after passing through heavy clothing. I'm confident that the Norma JHP would have expanded in bare gelatin but almost anything will. The denim indicates that it might not be the best option for defense. I wish I had the time and resources to do a full battery of tests including bare gelatin, denim, sheet metal, auto glass, and wall board with at least five shots each like professional labs do but I just can't.

 

[Palehorseman]

They all look wicked to me. brrrr.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I don't believe a man coming through a door ten feet away would walk away from any of those rounds. I may be missing the point though. But, it sure looks like fun.....

 

[amd6547]

I would like to see a test of the new Hornady Critical Defense 30 carbine FTX load.

 

[Glock19Fan]

That .30 Carbine load is pretty impressive, and appears to be quite a bit hotter than typical American made stuff. Its expansion and penetration are also pretty impressive, and I think that within 50-100 yards it would make a good choice for small-medium deer with good shot placement.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

From personal experience of shooting at various parts of an Isuzu pickup with a number of different calibers, the .30 carbine round had better penetration than a .45 round and was similar to the .357 mag. Shooting the aluminum diesel engine block with a Mosin from 80 yards was fun. The round had to pass through at least one layer of sheet metal before hitting the block and when they penetrated the block it produced smoke. I assumed the smoke was from residue and gunk stuck to the inside surfaces of the block.

 

[chopinbloc]

The rifle belongs to a friend of mine and I'm not really inclined to buy a box of ammo just for a test but he'll probably want to test a few other loads. He's also casting gas checked bullets for it, which ought to end up costing him about the same as .22lr to shoot. I'm sure he'll probably play around with a few other JHP or JSP. I'd really like to see a DPX in this caliber. I'd consider this load to be a really good defensive choice, too. Especially for recoil sensitive people. While we were out there, we also shot some PPU ball ammo. I didn't record the velocities but they were in the same neighborhood but with significantly greater deviation. The recoil was like a .22 mag, which is to say virtually nothing. We didn't get the rifle on paper, but after adjusting the sights it was easy enough to hit man size targets at 150 yards. Dagnabit, now I kinda want to get one.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I believe there IS a factory company loading Barnes all-copper bullets in .30 Carbine, although which one is escaping me right now. Speer also does a 115-gr. .30 Carbine Gold Dot.

 

[strambo]

I don't believe a man coming through a door ten feet away would walk away from any of those rounds. I may be missing the point though. But, it sure looks like fun.....

The point is, the .30 Carbine 170g HP may zip through the man 10ft away coming through the door without expanding. Any of the other bullets in this thread will expand, cause a larger wound channel (leading to faster incapacitation) and pose less of an over-penetration risk. They are all equally "lethal."

Chopinbloc-Cor Bon does make a DPX .30 Carbine load. Hard to find it in stock. The best defensive loads seem to be the Remington 110 gr. JSP (R30CAR), Corbon 110 gr DPX, Speer 110gr Gold Dot, Winchester 110gr JSP.

I have an M1 Carbine as well, great little gun. If it was my primary HD rifle, I'd add an Aimpoint micro, light, good sling and find one of the above loads. It really wouldn't give up anything to an AR set up that way in practical terms for HD/defensive use.

 

[chopinbloc]

The 170 gr load was Norma 10mm.


Heavy OTM or medium weight JSP in .223/5.56 produce substantially more tissue disruption because of the greater velocity. That .30 110 gr JSP would be certainly adequate but if you had a choice and all other factors were equal, the AR would be a better choice for improved tissue disruption, better ergonomics, and the ability to penetrate soft body armor on the off chance that you need to.

Of course, the best defensive weapon for YOU is the one YOU shoot best.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I may be confused. If a round expands rapidly it is good, unless the target is wearing body armor, heavy clothing, or is behind an obstruction but if a round has good velocity and doesn't expand until after the initial penetration it is bad? When my 45 rounds bounced off of a cheap Japanese pickup tailgate that both the .30 Carbine and .357 Mag penetrated I think I will stick with an assailant with a hole through him rather than one with a sore chest......

 

[Hypnogator]

FWIW, here's what happens when you drive bullets much faster than their design parameters. This first photo is of an 85-gr .30 Mauser bullet loaded into the .30 Carbine with 17.5 grs H-110 (Max Load). Average velocity 2332 FPS. The photo depicts views of the bullet and loaded cartridge, and a bullet fired into water jugs, which exploded spectacularly. The jacket separated from the bullet, retained weight was only about 60 grs.


Next, a .30 Carbine loaded with a 100-gr Hornady SXT .309 bullet on top of 15.5 grs of H-110 for an average velocity of 2104 FPS. The bullet also exploded, shedding its jacket. IIRC, only about 39 grs of bullet remained, the rest fragmenting. Again, the explosion of the jugs was spectacular.



Both bullets penetrated about 12" of water-filled jugs. Definitely would not want to get hit with either of them!

 

[chopinbloc]

I may be confused. If a round expands rapidly it is good, unless the target is wearing body armor, heavy clothing, or is behind an obstruction but if a round has good velocity and doesn't expand until after the initial penetration it is bad?

Expansion and penetration usually have an inverse relationship. Ideally, you want the largest and earliest expansion you can get while still getting to at least 12" of penetration. A high percentage of retained weight is also desirable, but mostly for the purpose of getting good penetration.

Hypnogator, thanks for sharing those pics, did you place denim in front of the jugs? Remember that water will typically show you more aggressive expansion/fragmentation than is normally possible in tissue or gelatin. Also, shots with denim tend to penetrate more deeply in either water or gelatin because the denim delays expansion. Penetration in water is greater than in gelatin, of course, and I *think* the ratio is supposed to be 1.6-1.8:1 but as velocity increases, that ratio gets less accurate. I agree that both of those bullets would probably make really good defensive choices.

 

[Hypnogator]

I didn't use denim or any material in front of the water jugs -- just a test to see whether the .30 pistol bullets would be effective when driven at carbine velocities. Obviously, they are!

FWIW, the denim wouldn't have made much difference with the 85-gr SP round, and, unlike heavier caliber handgun bullets, the cavity in the front of the 100-gr SXT bullet was, in my opinion, too small to have been severely effected by nose-plugging.

Also FWIW, both bullets fed and functioned flawlessly. I've decided to cut the charge down to 15.0 grs H110 behind both bullets to somewhat decrease the violent fragmentation. The lighter charge will still function the carbine 100%, but I haven't tested the loads on water yet.

 

[chopinbloc]

Thank you. Yeah, JSPs can't get clogged. Even small cavities can, though. I tested some CCI Minimag in gel and denim prevented expansion but they expanded just fine in bare gel.

 

[mgkdrgn]

looks to me like that worked pretty good!