Gen. Boykin's fighting spirit

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FRIZ

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THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published October 22, 2003

Gen. Boykin's fighting spirit
By Tony Blankley

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20031021-090352-6004r.htm

The latest proposed victim in our struggle against terrorism is ArmyLt.Gen. WilliamG."Jerry" Boykin, recently named deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence. His mission is to reinvigorate the search for Osama bin Laden, Mullah Omar and other leaders of global terrorism. By training and experience, he is marvelously prepared for his new duties — having risen from a Delta Force commando to top-secret Joint Special Operations Command, through the CIA, to commandofthe Army's Special Forces. For a quarter century, he has been fighting terror with his bare hands, his fine mind and his faith-shaped soul.
It is that last matter — his faith, and his willingness to give politically incorrect witness to that faith in Christian churches — that has drawn furious media and political fire in the last week. The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, Howard Dean, the Egyptian foreign minister and other less lofty entities have all called for his removal from office, because of his expressed religious views. And, of course, these calls for his head are all made on behalf of religious tolerance.
While the full text of the general's comments will not be released by the Los Angeles Times columnist who secretly recorded them during the general's witness in churches in Oklahoma, Oregon and Florida, the purportedly scandalous bits have been selectively published in print and on television.
Gen. Boykin said the terrorists come from "the principalities of darkness," that they are "demonic" and they hate us because "We're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian and the enemy is a guy named Satan." The general also recounted the time he was chasing down a Somali warlord who was bragging that the Americans would not capture him because his God, Allah, would protect him. "Well," Gen. Boykin responded, "my God is bigger than his God. I knew my God was a real God and his was an idol."
In short, Gen. Boykin is being accused of calling America a Judeo-Christian country, the war on terrorism a religious war, and of expressing his belief in the truth of the New Testament of the Bible. While his critics concede that he has a right to express his religious views, they argue that his expressed opinions of the Islamic and Christian religions make him unfit to perform his duties of helping to lead in the war on terrorism. I am inclined to believe that he is splendidly fit for such combat, and I thank God that we have such a man as Gen. Boykin in our midst.
The purported fear is that the general's comments may have ruffled the feathers of our esteemed enemy — the millions and millions of fanatical Islamists, or that his statement may so inflame the passions of the millions of good Muslims that they will discard their peaceable ways and pick up the bloody sword of jihad. What utter balderdash.
Whether or not American officials chose to call this a religious war, it is unambiguously clear that our enemy, bin Laden and the other terrorists, are motivated by Islamic religious fanaticism. They say so in their founding documents and every day, in every way, around the world. However peaceably we may interpret the Koran or assess the history of Islam, at this time and in these places one would have to be swayed by a spirit of detachment from the facts not to see that a sizeable percentage of Muslims believe they are in a religious war with non-Muslims. They are consciously at religious war with the Jews in the Middle East, with Hindus in the subcontinent and with Christians everywhere. It shouldn't be a firing offense for the occasional American general to return the compliment. Indeed, I am heartened by Gen. Boykin's fighting spirit.
Nor is it factually wrong or religiously insensitive to point out that the United States is a Judeo-Christian country. We are. It is an uncontestable historic and cultural fact. We are also a country that strives in both law and habit to be impeccably tolerant and respectful to all other religions and to those who believe in no religion at all. But in rallying our countrymen to the defense of our lives and property at this time of peril, we are entitled to invoke — as Lincoln once did with such dignity and passion — the mystic chords of our memory.
It is well to recall that when Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill met in Placentia Bay off Newfoundland on the heavy cruiser Augusta on Aug. 9, 1941, to rally our nations to our common defense, they sang three songs with the assembled sailors: "O God, Our Help in Ages Past," "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" and "Onward, Christian Soldiers."
 
If the Washington Post and Los Angeles Times are against ya, chances are you're doing something right! ;)
 
Painting the war on terrorists as a war against Islam is a mistake of the worst sort. The motivation behind Jihadist philosophy is that the Zionists and their puppet (America) is out to eradicate the faithful. They believe that if enough Martyrs come forward, they will preserve their way of life. We would play into their paranoid fantasies. They would have enough propaganda to last the next 2000 years.

On the other hand, if we better their educations, and give them liberty, they may come to understand our culture. Freedom is addictive. There will be those who try to hurt us in the mean time, but we must in this instance, use the utmost discretion in prosecuting these terrorists. If the Iraqi people were to see that terrorists were acting against their welfare, then they would be far more likely to turn in known terrorists, and less likely to join a resistance in the first place.

I think that all of us on the high road understand that respect must be earned. I think we also know that earning a thing is often painful. If we can forgoe the mighty vengence which we could indiscriminately inflict upon the whole culture, I believe that there could be a great relationship formed.
 
"They have said, 'Come, and let us wipe them out as a nation; That the name of Israel be remembered no more.'" -- Psalm 83:4

In the Bible, the reborn state of Israel is predicted as the center of the events that will lead to the last war of the world. The Arabs are portrayed as the spark that will light the fuse. Because of the 4,000 year-old animosity between these two ancient races, the Hebrew Prophets say they will fight a battle into which all the world's nations will be drawn. How could a conflict between the rather backward and underdeveloped Arab countries and the tiny state of Israel become so important to the great powers of the world? As the Arabs see it, it's only a matter of time before Israel's one true ally, the US, will become so dependent on Middle East oil that we will have to either drop our support of Israel or be destroyed economically.

This band of small countries could have more the $1 trillion on hand. Look how much they have found that Saddam had hidden. They will soon have enough to buy all the shares outstanding on the New York Stock Exchange. Members of OPEC have already brought major shares of some of the larges companies in Europe. They also own banks, farmland, real estate and business in the US as well.

The power of Oil -- The oil-rich Arabs have learned to use their oil as a political weapon. As the US and the rest of the industrialized world continues to depend on Mideast oil, the Arabs will gain more power to control the world situation. If nations don't give in to their pressure, the Arabs have the power to bankupt them. The recent Islam revival throughtout the Middle East and Africa has bound the Moslem nations into a united, anti-West, inti-Israel front. These fanatical Moslems appear certain to gain the potential to launch nuclear terrorist attacks in the NEAR FUTURE. Don't forget they have controling vote at the United Nations. SCARY if you ask me.

Mrs. Toro


_____________________________________________
1 Chronicles 17:9
Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and thy shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness wast them any more, as at the beginning.
 
So. Now the intolerance for christians has moved from what we can say in public to what we can say within the confines of our own churches? :cuss: :banghead: :fire:
 
I believe that any man has a right to any opinion. Think what you want. I support KKK members rights to march.

I would not support a mayor who was in the KKK

I will not support a man whose personal beliefs will inhibit him from performing his job correctly. It often occurs that a man's personal opinions, if that man is delegated power, have a tendency to become policy. Because these remarks have become widely published co-operation by Muslims may be hampered by belief that they are selling out their God.

Mrs Toro, that is an unrealistic scenario.
1:Turning off oil: We need oil, they need everything but oil. It would kill them too.
2:Buying all the shares in the NYSE: Couldn't happen really bad move if they tried. When the large desire for stock exists price goes up accordingly. If the desire is infinite the price will appoach that. Then the Saudis se the P/E ratio is 50,000 and kill themselves for being dumb.
3:They own some stuff here:They have two options run the business well and reap profit while creating more jobs in the US - or - Run the business into the ground destroying their investment, while an American company moves into the vacuum.
4:Arab Unity: Doesn't exist, it is what Osama was trying to create. For an example look to Iran.
5:UN Control: don't know if it is true, don't care. It has delusions of grandeur.

In summary
Don't be scared
 
"Well," Gen. Boykin responded, "my God is bigger than his God. I knew my God was a real God and his was an idol."

Congratulations, General...you have just put your finger on the single biggest cause for warfare in human history. Everybody knows that their god is real, and the other guy's god is an idol. Too bad that he can't quite realize the magnitude of his statement.

Now the intolerance for christians has moved from what we can say in public to what we can say within the confines of our own churches?

The problem with the General's statements is twofold.

He certainly has the right to his own opinion, and freedom to practice his religion. However, when he stands there in a U.S.Army uniform, in his function as the Deputy Undersecretary of Defense, he doesn't speak for himself: he speaks for the United States Army, and the Bush administration. His statements give the impression that his opinion is shared and endorsed by his superiors.

Secondly, how am I to believe that the good General can keep his personal religious bias out of his job? He gets to make policy decisions that affect all kinds of soldiers, Christian or not, and it is very unsettling to think that he may make those decisions based on his religious beliefs, rather than pragmatism and what is best for his soldiers.

Lastly, I have to address the "intolerance towards Christians" bit. I don't want the Administration to start religious wars in my name or with my money. We have freedom of religion in this country, but no one religion has the right to commandeer the guns of the state and start enforcing religious doctrine at gunpoint. I'd hardly call that "intolerant". What's intolerant here is the evangelical Christian bias of many members of the Bush administration, from Boykin to Ashcroft to GWB, and their determination to advance their faith with the tools of the State....which aren't theirs to command for such a purpose. We already have one member of the Administration stating that we're in a holy war, and that the Muslim faith is idolatry. How much longer until we just drop the "War on Terrorism" pretense and rename the Middle Eastern campaign into "Crusades: The Sequel"?
 
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"Well," Gen. Boykin responded, "my God is bigger than his God. I knew my God was a real God and his was an idol."

Sad. So sad.

I wonder if he's still going around taunting people with "My dad can whip your dad."

John
 
You are either under God's delegated authority or you are acting under the authority of the Prince of Darkness, Satan himself. You're either a slave to Satan or a servant of Christ.

I would rather see the Christian General make his plans as a servant of Christ. We have Spiritual Deception in America. Wasn't America founded on the promise of religious liberty? Wasn't the Mayflower Compact a commiment to God? Don't we mint our coins with the slogan, "In God We Trust"? How could a country as sophisticated as America reject the God who blessed her and prospered her?

Just think what has happened in American within the past 40 years. When I grew up in the 50s most every one I knew was proud to be a christian. Now you never hear anyone talk about God. So, far the government has outlawed Prayer in school. The Ten Commandments were ripped off the walls of America's classrooms. School Bible clubs were shut down. America proclaimed itself a new, secular society. The ACLU has aggressively fought for freedom from religion, not freedom of religion, under the shroud of "separation of church and state." This all began in the 60s after I had graduated from High School.

Read up on the United Nations. They may be the World Leaders in the Future.

Mrs. Toro


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Hebrews 11: 24-26
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharoah's daughter; choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than treasures in Egypt; for he had respect unto the recompense of the reward.
 
Generals should learn to keep to their mouth shut. In fact, there should a class on this at every officer training facility! They are not politicians, they are not elected, they do not and should not have any influence on policy.
If they put on their uniform and go speak to the public about policy issues they deserve to have their toes stepped on. It's stupid and it's disloyal - they'd certainly crush an NCO who stood up in uniform before some group and said things contrary to his (the Generals) policies. The general's situation is no different in respect to his political bosses.

Didn't they see what happened to George C. Scott in "Patton"?

Keith
 
Mixing God and Country...

Keith, your point re: Patton is well taken, however for every General Patton (or Swartzkopf, or Boykin, if I may add their names) there are about 300 generals who are absolutely politicians, no fight, no commitment, swaying with any breeze that wafts from the hill. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think it's refreshing to see somebody who stands for something, anything! - not a reed blowing in the wind. :uhoh:
 
I don't want generals who "stand for something". Or actually, I just want generals who "stand for something" but also realize their place in the food chain. They need to concentrate on logistics and tactics, not politics. They can spout their opinions when they retire and write a book.

And I'll point out again, that this General Boykin would probably DESTROY any man under his command who undermined him in a similar way.

Keith
 
Just think what has happened in American within the past 40 years. When I grew up in the 50s most every one I knew was proud to be a christian. Now you never hear anyone talk about God.

You're joking, right? There's a church on every street corner here in Knoxville, and I only hear about God and Jesus 47 times a day between the billboards on the highway and the pit preacher and the College Baptist Ministry in the student lounge at my school. If you think that "hardly anyone talks about God" anymore, you need to move to this neck of the woods. Religious affiliation aside, saying that "you never hear anyone talk about God" is a depiction of reality that is distorted to the point of ludicrousness.

So, far the government has outlawed Prayer in school.

That is factually incorrect. Prayer is perfectly legal, as long as it is done on the student's own time, and as long as it does not interfere with class work. The only thing that has been outlawed is the teacher initiation of prayer. The teacher is an employee of the State and has no business initiating or leading any prayer. That's it. Other than that, children are free to pray and read their Bibles all they want.

My wife works as a speech therapist for the local school system. She says that she hasn't been to a single public school in any of the surrounding counties where you didn't have Bible and prayer clubs, preachers who witnessed to the children regularly, or copies of the Ten Commandments on the walls. I don't know what version of the United States you live in, but it doesn't quite jive with observed reality.

The Ten Commandments were ripped off the walls of America's classrooms.

They had no business being on the walls of public classrooms. They are still on the walls of parochial and private schools, where you are free to send your kids if you want them to have religious instruction by teachers. Personally, I can't even fathom why anyone would even want the public schools to be in the business of religion: the same schools that can't properly teach children to read and write, and the same system that you don't trust with teaching your children about guns or sex ed?

Even so, I can take you to a dozen public schools here within a 30-minute driving range, and I'll give you a nice, crisp $50 bill for every school that *doesn't* have a Decalogue posted somewhere. if you're willing to take the bet and pay me $50 for every school where we *do* find a copy of the Ten Commandments on the wall, I guarantee you that you'll need to bring a mighty fat wallet.

School Bible clubs were shut down.

If you can show me a documented case where a bible club in a public school was shut down, I'd like to see it. Every high school and college in this stretch of the country has multiple Bible and prayer clubs, and that is perfectly fine, as long as the school officials are not involved with them in any way.

America proclaimed itself a new, secular society.

That is utter baloney. America is a very religious society with a barely secular government. Most Americans are pretty fervent in their profession of faith. Drive down I-40 in K-town and count the "One Nation Under God" billboards, and then see if you can find any Atheist billboards. (Hint: even if there were any, you wouldn't be able to read them after a day or two of drive-by shotgunnings.)

Again, I'll invite you to come to Knoxville: we'll go downtown and ask people at random about their religious affiliation. If ninety out of a hundred people do not identify themselves unequivocally as Christians of some variety, I'll eat my "Molon labe" hat right in front of you. Bring a hat of your own, because if more than ninety say they're Christian, you'll have to eat yours. At the end of the day, I guarantee that you'll be the one needing the Tums.

The ACLU has aggressively fought for freedom from religion, not freedom of religion, under the shroud of "separation of church and state."

Freedom of religion necessarily implies freedom from religion. You are free to be a Christian. That means you are also free to not be a Muslim or a Jew. You therefore have freedom *from* religion, namely the ones you do not wish to follow. Can you even argue that point? This is a logical conclusion, unless you interpret "freedom of religion" as "freedom to be Christian". Do I have the freedom to not be a Christian? Then I have freedom from religion.

This all began in the 60s after I had graduated from High School.

Once upon a time, Christians were so powerful that they could get laws passed that made it illegal to teach anything but Christian creationism in school. There were state laws that required the recitation of Christian prayer in public schools, and state laws that forbade any non-Christian from holding public office. The "good old days" were only good if you were white, male, and Christian. I prefer the new America, where everybody is free to worship as they please, without any one group being allowed to shove their religion down everybody else's throat. Your opinion may differ, and that's your right. Just don't try to tell me I'd be better off if you were allowed to make my kids say your prayers in a public classroom. That is one right that you certainly do not have.
 
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Perhaps my previous post was so short that some of you thought it wasn't worthwhile to address. So allow me to state the question in another form.

Some of you are going on about things Boykin said to a group of people. Ranting and raving as if he had no right to say anything. Well, you would be right if it was said in a PUBLIC setting. But the point here, and it was made clear at the start of the article, was that what was said was said in a church: "...the Los Angeles Times columnist who secretly recorded them during the general's witness in churches in Oklahoma, Oregon and Florida,..." Only by doing the same stretching of meaning as the Governments does, can you arrive at the place where this is a public setting. It was a Church (or Churches) where people of religion often go to worship their God. This wasn't a political rally in the park or some fund raising dinner.

Has there been any indication that Boykin, in his real public voice, expressed that he can not or will not do his job?

If you can't answer that question in the affirmative, then you can have no basis for demeaning him when he reflects upon his faith within the confines of a private setting, as he did in a church.

The fact is, some of you are so antagonistic to anyone of faith, you will grasp at any straw in order to tear them down.
 
Al Norris has a point. I am not a Bible thumper, but I note that some here have a heck of a chip on their shoulder when a poster has the temerity to profess belief in a supreme being other than JMB or JC (Jeff Cooper). ;) These same posters will be the first to go to bat for people who profess any other religious belief than Christianity. Makes you wonder. :eek:
 
Boykin is a military officer and he made these statements IN UNIFORM. His statements were contrary to official government policy. That makes him out to be disloyal, and more to the point it makes him out to be stupid.

Keith
 
Oh, wow.

I am actually going against my better judgment by offering discourse of the subject, and the best you can come up with is, 'You just have a chip on your shoulder about people of faith"? Good job of addressing the points made, there. I'll be sure to avoid discourse of the subject in the future. That's fifteen minutes of my life I've wasted trying to actually argue something that some folks just can't debate in any sort of civil and reasoned manner.

Tell you what: I'll do what I should have done when this thread started. It'll get the same treatment as any thread about religion. I've had it up to --->here<--- with these pseudo-debates that all seem to end up turning into "My God is better than yours" arguments. Time to enforce the old rule about religious threads: they are needlessly divisive, and will be closed on sight.

End of story.
 
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