General gives very cool comments

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twoblink

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Here in Taiwan, 5 students who applied to the Military Academy have been expelled for cheating.

The 5 have gone to the media to plead their case.. They are the "victims" here so they claim.

So.. aside from the numerous admonishments from 5th graders who said it's pathetic that they think they shouldn't be punished for cheating, and that they aren't even remorseful.. the only part they are sorry about was getting caught.

But then, up to the mic walked a 4 star general, and he had this to say.

(Roughly translated)

"A soldier's top priority is integrity. When you are faced with enemies in front of you and behind you, the LAST thing you should have to worry about is the person next to you, in the trenches with you. To the 5 students, I can't trust you with a pencil, what makes you think I'm going to trust you with a gun?? What you have proven today, is that you lack integrity, and so I am recommending in addition to an expulsion, that you be forever barred from joining armed forces.."

:D

A little background.. Military service is manditory here in Taiwan, and when you apply for a job, they will request to see your military service records. Failure to have one means you are a criminal... So it is basically impossible for those 5 to get a job in Taiwan working anything other than possibly cleaning toilets..

No tears in my eyes!!

The boyz up until then, were supposedly excellent students, and excellent marksmen..

Do you guys agree with the general's statement? I do!
 
Being an ROTC cadet in college, I definitely understand what this General said. We've had a couple of instances of 'cheating', and the cadets were dealt with. However, if the employment situation in Taiwan is as you described, I think it would be foolish to ban them from the military. Without going into too much detail, the outcome of them not being able to find sufficient work would be their involvement in crime or their drain in society. They dicked up, no one will argue that. But to ruin the the lives of several 20-someting year old students seems obsurd to me. They screwed up and will have to deal with that for the rest of their lives. They'll never be officers, and probably shouldn't, but I ask fellow readers if in all their time thorugh school, can they say that they never cheated once? I don't know how many can when one study said that roughly 80% of high school students admitt* to cheating at some point in their academic career. Just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
 
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"However, if the employment situation in Taiwan is as you described, I think it would be foolish to ban them from the military." TheFunnyMan
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Agree fully with the above.

What these kids did is definately wrong and certainly deserving of sanction. But, given the lifelong consequences of the ban, does the punishment fit the crime?

They screwed up enough that I wouldn't trust them in a trench with me. Nail 'em for sure - but I don't think such serious consequences are necessarily the appropriate response.

FWIW
 
On the other hand FunnyMan, when I taught engineering drawing at Purdue it was very easy for the students to cheat by exchanging cad files. I am sure some of them did it, but I was unable to prove it. My suspicions were usually confirmed during exam time. I busted only two (ROTC) guys for cheating because one forgot to change his buddy's name in the title block. :rolleyes:

Got to watch those ROTC students closely...they sometimes do desperate things that are normally out of character when they are deprived of adaquate sleep. ;)

Of couse, I do not condone cheating, but I used to tell all my students that if they were going to cheat, then to cheat smart. If they were stupid enough to get caught by me then they richly deserved whatever they punishment they had coming to them and that I was going to do my best to get them expelled.

Wild Bill: They didn't just accept their punishment and be done with it. They escalated the matter to the media and not through the proper "chain of command".
 
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They didn't just accept their punishment and be done with it. They escalated the matter to the media and not through the proper "chain of command". CatsDieNow
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Point taken.

That lack of "stand-up" attitude certainly calls for more aggressive punishment. Their case would have been strengthened if they owned-up to the deed and accepted whatever the chain of command gave them. That would have been the honorable route, and would have opened the door to eventual redemption over time.

Stupid is as stupid does - and these cadets are certainly there. They did wrong and (worse yet) were arrogent enough to think they could weasel out of the consequences. Stupid, reeeal stupid!

But this isn't the grand ol' USA we're talking about here gang. If the lifelong consequences are indeed as far-reaching as claimed, is the sanction fitting the deed?

I'm not advocating for them or attempting to minimize their infractions. They did the crime. They need to do the time.

Question is how much. I just don't think a mistake that could be attributed to youth and stupidity sould have such a far-reaching and irr-retreivable consequence.

Damn. I gotta shut my mouth here. Starting to sound like a liberal!

:uhoh:
 
Fortunatly, the guys I busted had enough sense to go to the professor in charge before I could report them. They did the right thing, took their lumps, and got to finish the course and stay in ROTC.

I figure this has parallels to a criminal charge. You can either plead guilty and accept a more lenient punishment or take it to trial and risk something more severe, but possibly be acquitted. It appears they were convicted by 5th graders and the general invoked the maximum sentence.

But as you say...this wasn't the States. Don't know how stuff works there, but I certainly don't feel sorry for them.
 
Some one help me out here, as I just don't get it.

Five students in the Taiwanese Military Academy got caught cheating. For lack of Integrity, they were expelled. They then lost their Honor by going to the media to plead their case. They then acted as "victims" showing a lack of Pride.

In our country Pride, Honor and Integrity used to mean something. Apparently no more, to judge from some of the comments I've just read.

Wild Bill, if you wouldn't want to serve with the likes of these, why foist them off upon someone else?

FunnyMan, You really believe 80% of students cheat? I don't. It's feel-good statistics to justify immorality.

So, explain to me how one can justify any lessor punishment to idiots that won't accept the consequences of their actions?
 
Heh - when I was in college, there was a guy who thought that he'd be able to ace a term paper by copying a portion of a doctoral dissertation.

He neglected to check to see that the author wasn't employed at the university - The author had been married, with a corresponding change of name, and was his professor.

Ooooh, was that nasty...
 
Al

I wouldn't suggest we foist them off on anyone. Nor am I trying to excuse their actions.

Problem I have with the punishment and the total life-long effect IN THAT SOCIETY that is so over-reaching. It doesn't give the possibility that they may well accept the consequences of their actions. Time and reflection can work wonders occasionally. Reform at some time isn't in the cards with that sanction period.

Interestingly enough the punishment you agree with might just foist them off on us (but we'll get to that in a second).

Now before y'all light-up the flamethrowers let me try to clarify my comments.

Pride, honor, and integrity still do mean something - especially to me. I came into this life naked just like everyone else. Since I'm unlikely to win a Pulitzer or make a Gates size fortune (and couldn't take it with me even if I did) my pride, honor, and integrity are about all I'll leave this life with. Let's not go there.

These idiots are obviously devoid of any of the above and are, especially as cadets, deserving of stern sanction. You won't get any arguement from me on that fact. The only question is the degree of sanction justified.

Here with our system, in theory, you can do the crime, serve time commensurate to the deed, recognize the error of your ways, and still (hopefully) find a productive use for your newly reformed self. Here a record will keep you out of the upper tier of the job market for sure. But it won't stop you from earning a living and thereby create a bottom-feeding drain on the rest of us.

There - assuming the initial post is correct in the far-reaching nature of the lack of a service record - this sanction will do just that. I haven't a clue what they have for a welfare system, but whatever they do have is where this punishment sends these fools to.

Forget about the possibility of recognizing they did wrong and striving to redeem themselves. That's possible here, but it isn't always an option in the rest of the world. Example - if your kid shoplifted a candy bar on a dare when he/she was 10 would you want them to have their hand chopped off like they do in some places? Poof! There goes the chance to pilot the shuttle kid. Sorry if you later realize you were stupid. Sorry if you work hard to become a stand-up person all your life. Too bad, so sad, next coontestant please. Zero tolerance, whoo hoo, what a concept!

Yeah, yeah ... this is a lot more serious than that, but y'all get the idea I hope. We all agree the defense of self is a universal human right. Isn't the possibility of reformation as well? If this sanction removes that possibility then I think the sentance goes beyond what's called for.

They ain't victims boys and girls. But they ain't serial killers either. Kick them out, slap 'em in the brig, hit 'em hard, whatever ... but remember they ain't us. Here that punishment would mean they'll never get a security clearance past the delivery person level. They can still make something of their lives - especially if they realize their error and work at turning their lives around.

In their country that level of punishment sentances them to a life on the lowest rung of the economic ladder forever. Is that fitting for cribbing a test?

Consider this as well (last point I promise). This is Taiwan. These kids are in a military academy. That means their folks are well off enough to find an alternative. They won't let their pride and joy fall to the bottom of the socio-economic pool. They'll send the little s#*ts over here to be educated and make their lives in our midst.

Give them a lesser punishment and they may be able to become productive members of their society someday. Nail 'em and Mommie and Daddy are likely to foist them of on us. Your choice.
 
They CALLED the general out in the media! Trial by media!

I think this was a small case, expelled, and all done. They go through the army the regular way, via draft.. take their lumps.

But they said they were VICTIMS of the system..

I don't know much about the general, but I know when he walked out, the media turned silent, so even if I don't know him, everybody else does..

Also, let's establish, these guys aren't to be trusted. People who don't suck it up, and admit their wrong and then try to turn the tables, pathetic.

4th and 5th graders called into the news show where they tried to plead their case; and gave them the shaft...

NO TEARS.
 
So it is basically impossible for those 5 to get a job in Taiwan working anything other than possibly cleaning toilets.
Click to expand...

Don't worry. They'll be climbing on your porch in a year or two. :rolleyes:
 
At this point the only aceptable thing for them to do is find a tall cliff and let gravity apply justice. It is the only way for them to regain their honor.
 
RON in PA wrote:
At this point the only aceptable thing for them to do is find a tall cliff and let gravity apply justice. It is the only way for them to regain their honor.
Click to expand...
Essentially Ron, that is what is left to them.

Now, I'm not at all sure how much of the old culture stills holds sway in Taiwan (TwoBlink, correct me if I'm off base here), but these miscreants haven't just shamed and dishonored themselves. They have placed that dishonor squarely upon their family. Their Mother and Father, brothers and sisters, uncles and aunts, grandparents, and yes, even their ancestors...all the family now is dishonored by what they did. In the old culture, there is only one way to remove that dishonor from the family.

This is no longer about just those 5 kids. It's about what they did to their respective families.
 
These are cadets. They are high school, in the military academy..

So 17-18. Nope, if they are 5th graders, then so be it.

One a 1 mother and 1 father has spoken up on their behalf..

But I present this to you all, what if this was Westpoint??

What was interesting was, they refused to take phone calls on the air from graduates of the academy.. (Gee, I wonder why) If I was an Alumni, I'd give them a :cuss: and a half, I'm sure.

What the general is most afraid of (and I agree with him) is the reputation of the academy. What are you saying then? "You can cheat, and that's ok"???

There are actually plenty of jobs that they can do, like truck driver, delivery boy, etc.. They just will never work an office job in their life. They will never work for the government, or any large private corporation.

The other comment was right; if they cheated, got thrown out, and then went into the army the regular way, no big deal. But now they are "famous" or "infamous", to say they will be hazed in the regular army is just such a gross understatement I don't even know where to begin.

Also, I believe that all of them _HAD_ girlfriends... Now they will be jobless and girlfriendless..

Let me just say, this isn't a Taiwan thing, this is a military academy thing. I will bet 100% that this would be the case regardless where this happened in the world.

Integrity, Honor, Pride, Leadership. Tell me which one of these skills, these boys have?

When they went to the media, they sealed their own fate. Trail by media in a military situation is stupid.

In taiwan, as there is draft system, everybody is a grunt. The real positions like officers etc.. are mostly reserved for military academy grads.

They screwed the pooch on this one.
 
Well, in case anybody cared, here's the update.

First, one student was caught cheating.. Not a big deal, he might have been punished and not even expelled.

Then he RATTED out his 4 other friends. So there was 5 altogether. That's CONSPIRACY to cheat, which is now very very serious.

Also, they are in the military academy, which in Taiwan is just like the Army.. So 100% of their daily living is paid for by the government; in addition, they are suppose to be the "elite" and so their families get a 50% break on everything across the board.

In the bi-laws, they say if you are expelled for such and such reasons (and Conspiracy to cheat is listed) then you are suppose to pay restitution to the state! Ouch. The tab for 4 years of college plus whatever your discount use to be, came out roughly $20,000US. So the family is up in arms about it.

The boys have started acting like Martyrs, painting signs that say "I cheated" all over their bodies..

One of the comments was about the boy that ratted out his friends..

Someone asked "If you were captured, and without torture of any sort, you would tell the enemy where your base is??" Ouch..
 
Twoblink....

"Also, let's establish, these guys aren't to be trusted. People who don't suck it up, and admit their wrong and then try to turn the tables, pathetic."
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Wasn't there a President Bill somebody-or-other like this?:)
 
Proven incompetence is good and fair cause to cashier anyone. These guys have proven themselves incompetent cheats. Don’t let the door hit you in the backside on the way out.

How did you react to Kirk's solution to the Kobayashi Maru test scenario?
 
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