General question for LEO's

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boerseun

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I've been reading about training for Law Enforcement officers and such...

Training, as I have read and understand it, dictates that the LEO should place the car door between him and a possibly armed assailant when pulling a car over.
Having done a lot of shooting in my life, I know a 9mm ball will go clean through the door of a crown vic. So, based on this fact, it would seem that the training places the officers' lives at risk - or are the doors armored? The glass?
 
Its not generally armoured. Its a case of concealment vs cover. The door can give you some concealment, but not much cover. Its better than nothing, and on the road, its about all you have.

Sparky
 
The Door

is not held at a 90 degree angle to the possible shooter but is at an angle of from 30 to 45 degrees, window down, this tends to deflect pistol rounds to a certain extent. Is it perfect? No. Better than nothing? You bet. Behind the engine compartment, front wheel and tire with the vehicle angled to provide cover is preferred but not always possible.
 
Thanks for the info folks. I've always wondered about it. As police officers, would it be a benefit to have the glass and door slightly armoured to stop common handgun and buckshot loads?
 
heard somewhere that LEO's would put old armor vests inside the door frame.
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I guess just about anything is possible, but a typical officer has neither access nor authorization to take apart a service vehicle to do so.
 
If your choices are get shot straight in the chest, or get shot with a bullet that has already gone through a few peices of steel, which would you choose? It may not stop the bullet, but it certainly will slow it down...
 
Can't remember the name of the company but one ballistic armor supplier makes ballistic panels that are formed to exactly match the contours of the
Crown Victoria. You apply it over the door, fasten it in place and paint it. They also can make them for other vehicles. Renders the door highly bullet resistant to most pistol rounds. They advetise it at about $600 per door.
 
Training, as I have read and understand it, dictates that the LEO should place the car door between him and a possibly armed assailant when pulling a car over.
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My training doesn't dictate that at all. We stay mostly inside the car, leaning out to aim / shoot through the "V" between the A-pillar and the door. This takes advantage of cover provided by the hardened steel in the A-pillar, the engine and it's accessories, and the angled windshield.

It sounds kind of awkward, I know. I thought so at first, too. After trying it and doing a few mock felony-stops that way, it isn't really awkward at all.
 
My choice of cover would be the rear of the vehicle..lots of cruiser between you and your possibly armed stop.
This practice also gives a much safer approach to the suspect vehicle, unless its a felony stop and you will be calling the occupants back toward you anyway. If you exit your vehicle and go behind your own cruiser to get to the passenger side of the stopped vehicle, you are safer from passing vehicles running you over because they are in la la land and dont see you until they are a milisecond from hitting you or your brightly flashing cruiser. You never want to go betwee your cruiser and the stopped vehicle. It is also much easier to see whats going on in the stopped vehicle because, most people just plain expect the officer to approach on their driver side, you can walk up and peek in and most of time, they are still watching their side mirror, looking for you. Most of the time, they wont know you are there until you tap on the passenger glass, by that time, you will have seen what they are doing, or even luckier, heard what they were saying.
Of course, there is always the driver that parks right at the edge of a big ditch and makes the passenger approach impossible.
Not saying its the perfect approach, but it is an option.
My first post by the way, nice forum>
 
"My training doesn't dictate that at all. We stay mostly inside the car, leaning out to aim / shoot through the "V" between the A-pillar and the door. This takes advantage of cover provided by the hardened steel in the A-pillar, the engine and it's accessories, and the angled windshield.

It sounds kind of awkward, I know. I thought so at first, too. After trying it and doing a few mock felony-stops that way, it isn't really awkward at all."

Exactly. I don't know where the OP is getting his information, but its wrong.
 
The OP went on comments from some officers on this and other boards. That's why I wanted to know more to clarify it. I'm thinking of ideas to help our LEO's stay safe...more than that I can't say without blabbing out my secret plan :)
 
Massad Ayoob is known for saying "I know this bullet can penetrate my shirt, and I know this bullet can penetrate this door, but I don't know if it can penetrate this door AND my shirt." Good advice.
 
Did I see correctly where the OP stated a 9mm will go clean through a Crown Vic door? :confused:

That may be true in some circumstances, but not all. A bunch of guys I shoot with regularly got a couple of intact car doors (one a Crown Vic, I think) and brought them to the range for a practical test of bullet penetration on vehicles. The results are impressive. There is a lot more stuff crammed into the car door than you think. This does provide a modicum of better cover than, say, a plain piece of sheet metal. There is electrical wiring, pulleys and cables for the window, and the window if it is down, as well as the door latch and locking mechanism. There is also the metal of the outside of the door and the inside. Don't forget the insulation, fabric and material that make the interior up. On some newer models you will find steel crossmembers as part of a safety 'side-impact' barrier.

We shot through several car doors with varying results and different calibers. Nine mil actually slowed down enough where we found the slug on the ground before the backstop, or inside the door itself. Shooting the door at an angle provides more metal the round has to penetrate before reaching the interior and does more to deflect the round.

About the only thing we found that got full penetration was 12 ga. slugs and .308 rounds.

For a small investment at the local junk yard, you can try this at home, or at a range willing to let you test this out. It was pretty interesting to see firsthand.
 
"Massad Ayoob is known for saying "I know this bullet can penetrate my shirt, and I know this bullet can penetrate this door, but I don't know if it can penetrate this door AND my shirt." Good advice."

Just more proof that MA doesn't know what he's talking about. A car door is a very, very poor choice of an object to hide behind. It is NOT good advice.
 
Not a Crown Vic, but enough to convince me not to ever hide behind a car door if shot at.
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As has been stated, bullet-permeable concealment is better than nothing. The harder you are to see, the poorer target you make. A few thin layers of steel and a glass window (rolled down into the door) are much better than that, especially when presented at an angle to the threat.

Maybe some people think our LEO's should drive armored tracks.
 
There is really no ideal solution. You have to simply use what you have to your full advantage.
The scene is usually called a 'felony' stop. It is also ideal if the officer doesn't attempt the stop until he has back-up. Not getting too close and leaving yourself some distance can help, too.
 
We recently had an officer involved in a shooting where the BG shot one of the officers through the door of a Suburban with a .22 revolver. The bullet penetrated the door of the SUV, and it managed to hit just below his vest. It was the only lucky thing that this shooter had experienced at this time, as he was then taken out by officer #2 who was firing from the other side of the vehicle.

Thankfully, the officer that was shot, the last time I heard, was recovering in possibly the best trauma hospital in the nation.
 
Our troopers, if they have room, will often stop their cars at an angle (front passenger side corner closest to the other car) during even a routine traffic stop. I haven't talked to any of them about it, but I would assume this is, at least in part, to give them cover if they have to retreat. I don't know that I've ever seen a felony warrant stop.

If I'm getting shot at and have to stand my ground I'll take whatever cover I can get - whether it's an M1 tank or a sheet of cardboard. I'd prefer the former, though. :D
 
Just more proof that MA doesn't know what he's talking about. A car door is a very, very poor choice of an object to hide behind. It is NOT good advice.
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You have to read between the lines, let me translate.


ANY COVER IS BETTER THAN NO COVER.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE NO CHOICE.
 
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