Generalities about good/bad cheap ARs

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Skribs

Skribs

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I'm looking at getting my first AR-15 soon. I want it to be:
  • Mid-length gas system with a 16" barrel (lots of cheap 16" ARs I see use a carbine-length gas system)
  • Have a railed flat-top upper receiver and either a railed front sight post or a flip-up front sight post (I do not want the static A2 sight post)
  • Durable and reliable
  • Have a smooth trigger action and charging action
  • Ambidextrous safety and magazine release (I am comfortable doing this part myself with aftermarket parts, but not replacing the front sight post)
  • Lighter weight is better.

I don't need a super-accurate rifle. The intended range is 20 feet or less, if I can hit minute of torso at that range I'll be happy. I plan to put on a flashlight, red dot, and flip-up sights. I'm willing to pay extra money if it's worth it for reliability or ease of use, but at the same time I don't want to spend any more than I have to in order to have a quality HD rifle.

I don't plan on going store to store looking for a specific make and model of rifle, so I'm just looking for some generalities. What are brands to watch for or avoid? Or specific models that are good options or bad options?

EDIT: I plan on making use of a magpul handguard for weight and comfort.
 
I don't own one, but Smith & Wesson's AR's get good reviews. Others may recommend something from PSA.

I have an Adams Arms piston AR and so far, I like it quite a bit.
 
In my experience most of the budget AR's are plenty accurate and reliable. The higher end stuff will most likely be more durable after long hard use. Most civilians will never wear out most of them.

You probably won't get a great trigger out of the box on most budget guns. Plan on upgrading and figure that into your budget if it is important. A great trigger isn't needed for the tasks you mentioned.

I kept the standard front sights on my AR's. I can't even see them through the optics mounted on the rifles and use a flip up back up iron sight mounted on the rail under the rear of the scope.

I'd strongly suggest a 1-4X20 scope instead of a dot sight.
 
jmr40 said:
In my experience most of the budget AR's are plenty accurate and reliable. The higher end stuff will most likely be more durable after long hard use. Most civilians will never wear out most of them.

You probably won't get a great trigger out of the box on most budget guns. Plan on upgrading and figure that into your budget if it is important. A great trigger isn't needed for the tasks you mentioned.

I kept the standard front sights on my AR's. I can't even see them through the optics mounted on the rifles and use a flip up back up iron sight mounted on the rail under the rear of the scope.

I'd strongly suggest a 1-4X20 scope instead of a dot sight.
Click to expand...
Why would you recommend a scope over a RDS on a SD rifle? So much heavier...granted at 1x the eyebox is pretty forgiving, but nothing like the RDS, especially for the first shot; for strictly home defense the scope gives you no advantage. Also you wind up with an optic you have to switch on (with few exceptions) as opposed to the latest red dots that you can just leave on all the time.

I've got rifles set up both ways. For strictly SD and shorter range plinking I MUCH prefer the RDS, though I will concede it's as much the weight as anything, as my scope's eye relief is one of the more forgiving on the market. Good scopes in this magnification range are expensive also. A scope can be used that way but it's just not nearly as efficient, to me anyway, I am much, much faster with the Aimpoint.

If you do decide on a scope the front sight post is only visible at the lowest power through my scope (1-4), and you quickly learn to tune it out. It's below line of sight anyway. With a 1/3 co-witness and a RDS you can just ignore it, it's below the aiming line of sight here also and quickly becomes a non-factor. With the mounting options available now it's pretty easy to have QD mounts on your stuff and you can have a red dot and a scope that you can switch out in a couple of seconds...the red dot can be roughly sighted in with the open sights, close enough for the SD option you're looking at anyway. I can also attest that the Daniel Defense QD scope mounts re-attach very closely to zeroed, they are pricey but they do work.
 
I think the longest shot I expect to need this for in SD is under 40 feet. Realistically under 20, and most likely under 10. I have absolutely no need for magnification on this rifle. I'm in a small condo and would only need it there.

I'm not necessarily looking for a great trigger, but one that isn't really gritty.

If my only option was to use a static front sight post I'd be okay with it. Because I have the option to not have one, it's an option I'd rather take.
 
I picked up a Diamond Back DB-15 on Black Friday for $449 and now they are around $550. It came with a free float quad rail and no sights. I hit evilbay for some magpul flip up sights and a cheap foregrip with a light. Less than $550 in it and it eats everything I feed it and no malfunctions so far. Plenty accurate for me at the ranges I shoot at so far and I'm happy with it.
 
Range < 20 or even 10. Are you sure you want an ar for hd and in a condo to boot. If so, most budget ar's would fit you nicely. I would get a budget ar and upgrade the trigger when funds allow. For hd a crisp trigger for minute of torso would not be a must though.
 
If you are going to bet your life on the rifle, buy upper end. For tiny groups, buy upper end. For everything else, $500-$600 AR's will do it.
 
If you are going to bet your life on the rifle, buy upper end. For tiny groups, buy upper end. For everything else, $500-$600 AR's will do it.
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I disagree, for a first AR, buy a "starter" AR from a reputable vendor -- like S&W, and spend the savings over the upper end gun on ammo and range time. Unless money is no object.

In the end you'll be a better shooter with it, and if anything breaks there is nothing easier and less expensive to repair than an AR -- unless its horribly over or under gassed -- which is why I suggest S&W because of their warranty in the unlikely event you get a bad one.

While I really like mid-length, the 16" carbine is the most mainstream, in theory the mid-length gas system has advantages, but in practice so many 16" carbines have been made for so long that all the bugs are long gone.

Down the road if you want another, then consider what the upper end buys you for your actual usage case.
 
Since you want to use the Magpul handguard, abandon your need to have a flip up front. Just get a Colt 6720, put Magpul furniture and an Aimpoint PRO, light and sling on it and call it good.

My HD AR has a flip front sight, but I leave it always flipped up so it is instantly there if the RDS fails. I bought an LMT MRP so an A2 sight wasn't an option, but an A2 front sight would have been just fine with me.

I do like mid lengths also and the Colt isn't, a BCM upper on the lower of your choice (or complete BCM rifle) would be a good choice as well. Or the PSA Premium line.

The less expensive ARs won't be different than the upper end ones for casual use (unless you get a lemon). The higher quality matters if you are going to be shooting it a lot in high round count sessions and taking carbine courses. That is where the better materials, assembly procedures and QA of the brands like Colt and BCM etc. come into play.
 
IMO, you would be served fine for your needs with a standard carbine length gas setup on an army clone with the normal front sight. With the standard carbine length, you will have plenty of options for accessories since MOST of them are built around these guns. Not that a middy won't do fine, I just don't think its necessary. Also, most decent RDS require you to turn them on- something you may not remember or have time to do in an emergency. Same situation for flip sights. So, if you have the "static" front sight and a BUIS "up" on the back, your gun is ready- aim, off safe, fire. My HD gun is a simple DEL-TON mil clone. It has the magpul handguards and a M3 pistol light on the 2" piece of rail at 9:00. The rear sight is a carry handle I cut in half, its got a 20 rd pmag with 55 grain federal ball. Yes, I have an aimpoint RDS for the gun, but I don't mount it in the HD mode. I would recommend a setup like this, from either S&W, DPMS, DEL-TON, Bushmaster, or PSA- whichever one I could get the best deal on.
 
Home defense? 16" Barrels are a little long going around corners in the house. Get an SBR and tax stamp or avoid the tax stamp and go for an AR Pistol with a Sig Arm Brace.

If you were eventually to go the route of an AR pistol with Arm Brace; don't shoulder it; otherwise the ATF now says its an SBR.
 
I agree with Wally...



For your first rifle, buy this:
S&W M&P Sport II

OR

Ruger AR-556

Ruger is going to have a heavier barrel with a 1:8 Twist
S&W is going to have a lighter barrel with a 1:9 Twist


What does this mean? The Ruger will be able to stabilize 62 grain bullets (and 55 grain), where as the S&W should stick with the 55 grain bullet weights.

Check out this page to read more about twist rates.

Then go to Ebay and pick up a Vortex Sparc II (2 moa red dot sight); MAKE AN OFFER for $150, it will be accepted, trust me. Check out this review on the Sparc II.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VORTEX-SPAR...396830?hash=item4af786f51e:g:d4cAAOSwQYZW1hUh


Now, if you plan on putting magpul furniture on it, I would just get the Colt Magpul, has a better 1:7 twist barrel to shoot any weight of ammo. If you buy the Magpul parts after individually, your going to turn a $700 rifle into a $1000 rifle, just go for the Colt or one that already has the furniture, its the better value.

Colt LE6920 MAGPUL


Then, after you select your rifle, go pick up some ammo

www.ammoseek.com



Then, learn the rifle, learn out to sight in the rifle. After you have learned; then build your own. Its an addicting hobby.

HAPPY SHOOTING
 
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I don't have a list of specific models to look out for, but here are some general guidelines.

First, flip and railed gas blocks are a bit last decade. A few manufacturers still use them, but only a few. If you don't want an A2 post, most rifles will have a low profile gas block and a free float handguard. This is a good thing as many of the last generation customizable handguards are lighter than a standard delta ring setup, and can be tailored to you, the shooter, in the placement of lights and grips.

Secondly, most same plane railed gas blocks will be heavier than an A2 front sight, unless aluminum is used. And aluminum gas blocks give my heebies. I get visions of stripped threads and cracked gas ports dancing through my head. And I can feel my fingers burning at the thought of mounting a flip sight on my gas block.

My advise would be buy a quality lower locally, and pick out an upper you can live with online. Many places will allow you to purchase an upper without a charging handle or give you an option to upgrade at a discount.

For quality lightweight uppers, check out bcm and psa.
 
Jakk .. I don't know if a build for his first ar is the right route, I mean he can for sure and I don't want to discourage anyone but... it could lead to a very disappointing experience.
 
I'm willing to pay extra money if it's worth it for reliability or ease of use, but at the same time I don't want to spend any more than I have to in order to have a quality HD rifle. * * * What are brands to watch for or avoid? Or specific models that are good options or bad options?
Click to expand...

Stick with the top tier, mil-spec builds by well-established AR makers (Colt, LMT, BCM, et. al), even if it means borrowing a few hundred from your girlfriend.

Avoid the johnny-come-lately junk. :scrutiny:
 
Home defense? 16" Barrels are a little long going around corners in the house. Get an SBR and tax stamp or avoid the tax stamp and go for an AR Pistol with a Sig Arm Brace.

If you were eventually to go the route of an AR pistol with Arm Brace; don't shoulder it; otherwise the ATF now says its an SBR.
Click to expand...

I don't want to go through any more hassle than I have to right now. Buying a rifle is simple. Buying an SBR is not as simple.

Stick with the top tier, mil-spec builds by well-established AR makers (Colt, LMT, BCM, et. al), even if it means borrowing a few hundred from your girlfriend.
Click to expand...

How optimistic of you to think I would have a girlfriend.

Jakk .. I don't know if a build for his first ar is the right route, I mean he can for sure and I don't want to discourage anyone but... it could lead to a very disappointing experience.
Click to expand...

My understanding is a lower and an upper are easy to put together as long as you get the whole lower and whole upper. If you want to put each together yourself it takes more work than I am capable of. Still, I'd rather get a complete rifle.
 
I built a 10.5" AR pistol for the same use, and it's become my primary deer gun, too.

I went with 10.5" because it's the proven length for CQB use and has been since 1965. I went standard FSB with a cut down carry handle rear sight because it works, it accurate, and nothing will break or fail relative to ANY optic. And for working in close quarters I wouldn't rule out a carry handle upper - the sights are even more ruggedly mounted, and the handle acts as an anti snag brace on the upper. CQB is a matter of being in intimate contact with every other thing in the surrounding environment - doors, door knobs, lamps, cords, hanging wall decorations, ad infinitum, all of which can and will get tangled up or fall on you at the worst possible moment.

Not the best time to have a folding front sight get broken or jammed in the down position, and if you need it, you need it up already. Not fiddling with it out of action.

The lack of a shoulder stock doesn't materially affect accuracy working close range where an 18MOA target standing less than 21 feet is the standard. And adding a $200 Stamp and getting a stock on it does impede it's use in civilian life - there is a significant difference in transporting or using a rifle vs pistol, and the pistol has the advantage in carry many times.

Nothing wrong with the list of ingredients for a working rifle but they add up to the M4 - a field carbine. For CQB the DOD came up with the XM177 in 1965 and it's descendants are still in service. If anything taking off the stock saves us $200 and makes a better choice all around. I got to use mine in two firearms seasons this last year and it's legal to transport loaded concealed if I so choose.

There should be no doubts which is preferable in built up use - by application and MOS the shorter weapon is what was created and is issue. For home defense I'd rather work with something under 26" than a carbine that touches both sides of a 30" hall or door frame.

IMHO the job needs a KISS AR pistol, not a full on M4gery meant for use in the larger landscape.
 
I recently bought my first AR. I chose to buy an Anderson lower from a local shop, $40, and a PSA complete kit, everything but the lower, for $389. Knowing absolutely nothing about AR's, having never handled one, I was able to watch a video online and put it together properly in less than an hour using normal homeowner tools.

No special tools were purchased or required. I took it to a friend's field and it functioned perfectly.

I see no need to spend large sums of money for an AR. If you buy all mil-spec parts, it should function perfectly the first time if you carefully follow instructions on the assembly. Buying a complete kit from a vendor like PSA minimizes the amount you will assemble. I am no super gunsmith, rather quite the opposite, and I had zero issues putting the parts together.

While I initially was a little apprehensive about starting it, once I started putting it together and realized how easy it was, my emotions changed from fear to enjoyment, along with a minor sense of accomplishment. I took my time, followed the instructions step by step.

Don't be afraid to try it yourself. If you ever want to change parts it nice to know how easy it is to do so. I didn't care for the trigger that came with the kit, so I bought the PSA enhanced trigger kit for $29, and installed it in all of 5 minutes for a great upgrade.

I would say the AR is simpler and less complicated than any other gun I've dealt with.
 
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From what I've seen, the Radical Firearms FGS-12, priced at $500, is a solid rifle. I haven't put too many rounds through it, but it runs and runs well, and has excellent features for its price point. Flat top, rail on top the free-floated handguard but smooth and round on the bottom. Fully M-LOK compatible, and with holes for QD slings. After a $40 set of flip-up iron sights, it was good to go.

I'm still doing a few other things to it to customize it and make it mine, but the basic rifle was a steal And the upper configuration was exactly what I wanted. The lower is getting a fixed A2 stock and a left-handed safety from Stag.
 
This one is $150 cheaper and is a lightweight without an A2 post.

I'm not sure he'll regret not getting the double thick chrome lined machine gun barrel at 20 feet. But I know that $150 will get him a lower, a couple mags and some home defense specific ammo to put in the mags.
 
If you have the skill to change a light bulb and a tire in your vehicle you can more than likely put a lower together, it's really not that hard. Some Punches and a strap wrench and you're in bidness.
An upper requires a torque wrench and some special tools.
Having stated that I would suggest for your needs a complete upper with a quality LPK and a Lower Receiver might get you what you want and save some money.
I strongly recommend BCM if this is the way you might want to go.
Another idea would be to haunt some AR centric boards and find a complete rifle in or near your area for sale.
Either way, I hope you find what you want and enjoy it when you do.

Edit to add;
When a company builds anything "cheap" the first thing that goes is usually QC/QA. That is then left to the builder to do.
Buying some things cheaper can get pretty expensive at times.
Never believe "All AR lowers are the same" I have one under my desk to pull out every time someone says that to me. Off brand can sometimes be Off Specification too.
If you have a very good lower you can always buy another upper for it and swap two or three back and forth to meet your needs.
Everybody has a better rifle that they built cheaper than you did or cheaper than you paid for yours. That's just the norm you'll find when you discuss these things.
Never begin upon this journey with "cheaper" or good enough" being your objective. Learn as much as you can so that you can make an informed purchase.
 
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I would agree that you should look for the best value, not the cheapest. For a first AR, a name brand complete rifle is not that bad deal. I have seen even Rock River rifles under $700.
 
Smith and Wesson's warranty is first rate and the M@P Sport is a very good rifle, got mine for $640 out the door.

There are some youtube video's on these rifles with 8000 rounds through them and no failures.
 
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